7/27/09

James Randi - the Amazing Atheist, part 2 of 2

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Posted by Ken
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29 comments:

  1. BeboJuly 27, 2009 at 10:35 PM

    There is a very big difference between chemotherapy and prayer. While you may never be able to prove that either one is responsible for a recovery in a given instance, chemotherapy has been demonstrated to work in general, whereas intercessory prayer has been demonstrated to have no effect at all. Prayer = Peanut Butter.

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  2. AnonymousJuly 27, 2009 at 10:44 PM

    This blog's owner probably doesn't have an active sexual life. Too bad.

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  3. AnonymousJuly 28, 2009 at 6:53 AM

    In general prayer is used as an altruistic form of good will and chemotherapy is a poison that helps kill you.

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  4. Paul the Prayer warriorJuly 28, 2009 at 8:13 PM

    God answers all prayer, some people just refuse to take the answer No for an answer. If someone prayers for an event and it happens No matter how improbable the Naturalist says Naturalism explains that ! If the prayer is not answered yes the Naturalist says Naturalism "Explains " that also!
    Atheists assume all pain and Cancer are meaningless sufferings and Jesus should have ended all pain when he came to earth and proven atheists are correct that pain is useless and meaningless, since he did not that shows God doesn't exist. I will pray God heals these atheist mental amputees! It will take a Miracle though.

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  5. AnonymousJuly 29, 2009 at 12:29 AM

    Peanut butter intervenes in all affairs, some people just refuse to take the answer No for an answer. If someone opens a jar of peanut butter for an event and it happens No matter how improbable the anti-peanut-butterist says anti-peanut-butterism explains that! If the event is not brought about the anti-peanut-butterist says anti-peanut-butterism "Explains" that also!

    All hail the mighty peanut butter!

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  6. BeboJuly 29, 2009 at 12:30 AM

    We also understand the mechanism by which chemotherapy works--attacking cells that divide rapidly. As for prayer, we don't have even a vague sense of how it might work. The laws of the universe are changed by having atoms teleport from one place to another?

    Naturalism doesn't explain things. Naturalism is an assumption we must make to have any chance of explaining things. An explanation, though, requires a lot more than just a coincidence of events. If opening a jar of peanut butter coincides with an improbable event, the peanut butter does not explain the event, because: a) the experiment is not repeatable and b) we have no workable hypothesis for how opening a jar of peanut butter would have any effect.

    Do you want to demonstrate that prayer works to a Naturalist. It's EXTREMELY easy. All you have to do is show that it works better on average than a coin flip. People have tried to do this and they have failed.

    And yes, cancer is meaningless suffering. If I gave someone cancer and said, "It's for a higher purpose. Some good will come of it down the road.", you would not accept that explanation and you would call me evil. And yet you worship a god that you believe does that very thing.

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  7. AnonymousJuly 29, 2009 at 1:58 AM

    Naturalism has never been something we have to assume in order to explain things, considering the fathers of most sciences were religious and christian more often then not. History absolutely refutes the idea that naturalism is needed. Galileo wasnt a naturalist fighting religion like atheists love to believe. Gregor Mendel wasnt a naturalist. Isaac Newton wasnt a naturalist. Neither was Kepler, nor 40% of modern scientists. Francis Collins leader of the human genome project isnt a naturalist and you cant call him a creationist either as a cop out.

    Naturalism is pure philosophy nothing more and it is bad philosophy at that. Naturalism does not equal science.

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  8. AnonymousJuly 29, 2009 at 12:02 PM

    @Bebo

    About your coin flip experiement remark, what would that prove anyways? First off, God has a will and is not going to come and change reality at your every beck and call, but that's a whole other story.
    But, let's tackle it from another perspective. Say I prayed that you flip 1000 tails. Now let's say that you did indeed flip 1000 tails. Would you be convinced? Probably not, you'd probably say it was a trick coin or the wind was shifting or you'd describe it with the naturalist's two favorite words: "luck" and "coincidence". Yet if you flipped 999 tails then flipped 1 head on the last shot, you'd automatically say, "See, no God!" In fact, any "experiment" that you believe would confirm God, even if it went perfectly towards the pro-God conclusion, you could and probably would try to find any explanation to deny the results.
    But I say let's all live and let live. If you don't want to believe in healing and not get healed, then go ahead. I'll just be over here believing God is still in the healing business and receive mine.

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  9. BenYachovJuly 30, 2009 at 3:01 AM

    Even Dawkins said that it's possible for a Statue of the Virgin Mary to wave if all the molecules in it suddenly moved in the same direction all at once & reversed themselves. He also said that it would be astronomically improbable. How improbable? It would take you a billion times longer than the lifespan of the universe to write out the number.

    But he also said if he saw such a thing he wouldn't conclude it was a miracle only that is was "lucky".

    Thus according to Dawkin's own standards "showing that prayer works better on average than a coin flip." proves nothing.

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  10. jdhueyJuly 30, 2009 at 11:39 AM

    "...raw and irrational emotion..."

    Raw, perhaps but hardly irrational. Revulsion at those loathsome characteristics of the Abrahamic God is really only sane. Ignoring those characteristic or somehow thinking that those characteristics are laudable is what is irrational.

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  11. BenYachovJuly 30, 2009 at 12:11 PM

    >Raw, perhaps but hardly irrational.

    I reply: 100% irrational.

    >Revulsion at those loathsome characteristics of the Abrahamic God is really only sane.

    He has no loathsome characteristics accept in your imagination.

    >Ignoring those characteristic or somehow thinking that those characteristics are laudable is what is irrational.

    I reply: So it's irrational to ignore characteristics of God which don't exist appart from your subjective self-serving characterizations?

    Yeh...gotcha.

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  12. jdhueyJuly 30, 2009 at 12:43 PM

    "He has no loathsome characteristics accept in your imagination."

    Well, we ARE talking about a fictional character, after all, so in one sense all of His characteristics are imaginary. However, as a fictional character that has had his actions and motives written about quite explicitly - many of those actions (and implicitly, His Character) are, indeed, loathsome.

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  13. BeboJuly 30, 2009 at 11:40 PM

    @jc1873

    Thanks for the reply. I'm surprised by how much you purport to know about me based solely on my defense of Naturalism. It's true that I do not believe in the supernatural, but you're wrong to think that my skepticism is so entrenched that I would reject overwhelming evidence of the supernatural. The fact is, I would be greatly swayed by even a little bit of evidence of the supernatural. To prove it, I am willing to participate in the following experiment:

    You choose a coin. It can be as biased or unbiased as you'd like it to be. You pray to your god to make it come up heads as often as possible. We flip it 30 times and record the number of heads. You then pray to your god to make it come up tails as often as possible. We flip it 30 more times and record the number of tails. If the number of correct flips is higher than 42/60, I will give $10,000 USD to the Christian charity or church of your choosing. If the number of correct flips is 42 or less, then you have to give a $10 to atheist bus ads.

    I am serious about this challenge. I can get a cashier's check. We can write up a contract--whatever you like. And this offer doesn't just apply to you, but to any other believer in the power of prayer reading this. If you're interested, please say so, and we'll work out the details via email.

    You're right that if all the coin flips go the right way, I would not necessarily believe in the Christian God instantly. But I would believe in the power of prayer, which would be a big change from my current worldview. With some additional evidence, I may eventually become convinced that the intervention of the Christian God is the best explanation for the phenomenon.

    Now I will purport to know something about you. I expect that you will not take me up on this offer, because you don't think that it will go your way. You made your excuse evident from the start: God has a will and does not perform tricks at our beck and call. But have you ever asked "Why not?"?

    The Bible is intended to be God's communication of his will to us. Therefore, according to Christianity, God's will is comprehensible, even if it sometimes requires interpretation. For example, embryonic stem cell research is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible but many claim that we can figure out how God feels about it from interpreting scripture. So why would God not want the experiment to go in the direction of demonstrating the power of prayer and convincing a nonbeliever to at least reevaluate his position? It would not remove free will, because, as you said, I could still choose to reject the God explanation. So why would a god who wants to be in loving communion with us not want to give us just a little bit of something to make the skeptics come to believe in him?

    Perhaps the best explanation is that God does not exist at all.

    Let me know if you want to help God get an easy $10K.

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  14. jdhueyJuly 31, 2009 at 1:32 PM

    apropos methinks: http://atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/p/AbuserAbusive.htm?nl=1

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  15. BenYachovJuly 31, 2009 at 7:32 PM

    Sorry Bebo but as I already explained from Dawkin's own standards "showing that prayer works better on average than a coin flip." proves nothing.

    BTW nice straw man argument.

    While we are at it why don't we try proving the existence of the Andromeda Galaxy by using an electron microscope.

    Let me know how that works out for ya.

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  16. BenYachovJuly 31, 2009 at 7:47 PM

    >The Bible is intended to be God's communication of his will to us. Therefore, according to Christianity, God's will is comprehensible, even if it sometimes requires interpretation. For example, embryonic stem cell research is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible but many claim that we can figure out how God feels about it from interpreting scripture.

    I reply: Of course you DO realize at best that is an argument against the Reformation doctrines of Sola Scriptura or the Perspicuity
    of Scripture?

    For those Christians like myself who happen to be Catholic or for Eastern Orthodox Christians this is a meaningless argument since we believe Scripture must be interpreted with Tradition & by the Holy Church.

    This does not disprove the existence of God or the Divine Inspiration of the Bible.

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  17. ReynoldAugust 1, 2009 at 2:47 PM

    Let us continue our observation of James Randi devolving from rational skeptic to emotive besmircher.
     
    Just what do you think you're doing, Mariano, when you constantly try to link* atheism & "darwinism" with Hitler and antisemitism, and your implication that atheists "indoctrinate" kids, while ignoring the fact that every culture and religion in history does that to some extent. I ask you: What form of child-rearing would you not consider to be "indoctrination"?

    For that matter, does telling your children of hellfire if they don't believe your mythology count as "indoctrination" compared to what the Camp Quest people do?

    Then, from that same "article", there's the implication that atheism leads to hopelessness...

    Then there's your complaints that atheists are putting up bus ads/billboards "trying to look smart" instead of doing anything to help people out, while dismissing the fact that xians have churches and signs all over the place which you have no problem with? Or the fact that you try to demonize the American Humanist Association for asking for donations when, again, you xians, as well as all sorts of other organizations also ask for donations to keep going?



    *In that link, along with various cherry-picked quotes, you have: Jerry Bergman, teacher of biology, genetics, chemistry, biochemistry, anthropology, geology, and microbiology at Northwest State College:. Is this the same Jerry Bergman, who, among other things, was caught misrepresenting something about Nebraska Man.

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  18. BeboAugust 1, 2009 at 2:59 PM

    @BenYachov

    Dawkins has no particular authority over matters outside of biology/zoology, so his views on miracles aren't important to me. Even if the experiment I outlined would not persuade Dawkins, it would persuade me.

    I proposed that prayer works as follows: a believer sincerely asks for an outcome and if that outcome is in-line with God's will, then he will select that outcome to occur. If this is a straw man characterization of prayer, then I ask you to come up with a better characterization. To date I have never heard an explanation of prayer that would allow us to discern whether it works or not.

    To answer your question, I did NOT know that what I said about man's ability to understand God's will from reading the Bible is a subject of dispute between Catholics and Protestants. What does "interpreted with tradition" mean? How would you use tradition to help understand an issue like human-animal hybrids, which were not even dreamt of by the early church?

    Nothing will ever disprove the existence of gods, but by investigating claims like "prayer works" we can at least debunk the supposed evidence in support of the existence of gods. If you don't believe that your god answers prayers, then you're right that what I have said does no damage. But if you do believe that your god answers prayers and that means something other than my "straw man" interpretation, please explain. Otherwise, put a meager $10 where your mouth is and take my challenge.

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  19. BenYachovAugust 1, 2009 at 7:48 PM

    >Dawkins has no particular authority over matters outside of biology/zoology, so his views on miracles aren't important to me. Even if the experiment I outlined would not persuade Dawkins, it would persuade me.

    I reply: On the contrary it is part of his thesis in THE BLIND WATCHMAKER: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design. So IT IS within his professional discipline & he does claim some legitimate academic authority for it. (One could response to it by looking at the arguments of Wiker & Witt in A MEANINGFUL WORLD but you would have to come to Theistic conclusions at the end).

    >I proposed that prayer works as follows: a believer sincerely asks for an outcome and if that outcome is in-line with God's will, then he will select that outcome to occur. If this is a straw man characterization of prayer, then I ask you to come up with a better characterization. To date I have never heard an explanation of prayer that would allow us to discern whether it works or not.

    I reply: I find it humorous how you are giving lip service to the idea of God as an autonomous intelligence while at the same time practically treating Him as THE FORCE or more specifically a force of nature with predictable results. In experiments on intelligent beings one does need to obtain their permission to participate for practical & ethical reasons. Did you get God to agree to participate in your “experiment”? Ethics aside how can you perform an objective behavioral experiment on an Omniscient Being? Also this smacks of the goofy approach used by Victor J. Stenger in GOD:THE FAILED HYPOTHESIS. As Philosopher Eric Reitan correctly pointed out this at best amounts to “weak falsification”(example: Nothing I’ve seen in these woods amounts to the existence of a wild boar. Ergo there is not a wild boar in these woods).

    Yours is an irrational silly argument EVEN IF God does not exist.

    Also God Wills from Eternity (& He is by nature Timeless)any classic traditional theologian Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Islamic will tell you that. So he CAN’T per say ever change his mind. When we pay to him for certain “things” we must recognize said “things” fall into three categories. Things which God will NEVER give us no matter how much we Beg & invoke the Name of Jesus. Things God will give us even if we never ask and Things God will ONLY GIVE us on the Condition we ask for them. The later is an example of answered prayer & it is done with the final purpose of us learning to depend on God. NOTto treat God as THE FORCE or COSMIC SANTA CLAUS which seems to be the end you have in mind.

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  20. BenYachovAugust 1, 2009 at 7:49 PM

    >To answer your question, I did NOT know that what I said about man's ability to understand God's will from reading the Bible is a subject of dispute between Catholics and Protestants. What does "interpreted with tradition" mean? How would you use tradition to help understand an issue like human-animal hybrids, which were not even dreamt of by the early church?

    I reply: God didn’t (according to the beliefs of Catholics & Orthodox Christians) give us a Divinely Inspired Book Alone as the sole authority to discern His Will. He gave a living Church with Authority to bind & lose & He gave us Bishops who passed down the interpretations of the Apostles & are guided by the Holy Spirit. Thus I know according to Natural Law as it has been upheld & developed within the Church & by the Authority of that same Church that human-animal hybrids are a crime against nature.

    >Nothing will ever disprove the existence of gods,

    I reply: Category mistake! The question of God is metaphysical, philosophical & logical. It is not directly empirical. Even witnessing a real live miracle doesn’t count as direct empirical data or evidence.

    Also it is a false claim that the “disproof” of the existence of the Classic Theistic God is some sort of Universal Negative. If you claim there exists somewhere a Four Sided Triangle. I don’t have to travel to every point in the vast Cosmos (or even every other Cosmos if you believe in a Multiverse) & fail to find it to prove you wrong. Nor do I have to waste time challenging you to produce evidence for the existence of the Four Sided Triangle. I just have to show the concept of a Four Sided Triangle is contradictory, illogical, incoherent & therefore impossible.

    These days the so called New Atheists, it seems, are just to lazy to do that. Or maybe it’s because the Old Guard Atheists have to date failed to do that. What can you do?


    > but by investigating claims like "prayer works" we can at least debunk the supposed evidence in support of the existence of gods.

    I reply: Which STILL as the Philosopher Reitan points out is nothing more than “weak falsification” & the Category Mistake I cited remains.

    >If you don't believe that your god answers prayers, then you're right that what I have said does no damage. But if you do believe that your god answers prayers and that means something other than my "straw man" interpretation, please explain. Otherwise, put a meager $10 where your mouth is and take my challenge.

    I reply: I believe I briefly explained it. You seem to (falsely) conceive of God as a Temporal Being with Super-Intelligence that lives moment to moment like the rest of us & responds to us moment to moment & can even be persuaded to change his mind.

    This is so completely off base. Rather God is an A-Temporal/Timeless/Eternal Being who wills conditionally from all Eternity to give us certain things we ask for only on the condition we ask for them.

    A coin flip experiment will prove nothing since by definition you would need God’s prior agreement to participate in your “experiment” & as Dawkins might argue even if you get a pattern of flips consistent with your personal definition of “poof” it could be dismissed as mere “luck”(however improbable) not divine intervention.

    Speaking as a Catholic the Sun Dancing at Fatima is convincing but your coin tossing even if “successful” to “prove” God is not. Like I said it’s like saying I bet you $100 the Andromeda doesn’t exist since I can’t see it under my microscope.

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  21. BeboAugust 2, 2009 at 3:12 PM

    BenYachov, in the interest of steering clear of theological debates, which I have never found to be fruitful, let us assume that you are correct that: 1) The Christian God exists, 2) Your concept of him is accurate, 3) The coin flip experiment would prove nothing.

    I would like you to then consider my proposition not as an experiment at all, but simply as an opportunity to give money to a good cause. Would you like to take me up on the offer? Or do you believe that the probability of God's intervention is less than five-hundredths of one percent? Considering that you would be asking for something selfless that would help carry out God's work on Earth, why would you consider the probability of intervention to be so low? What is gained, from God's perspective, for allowing this experiment to favor me?

    Is there anyone with stronger faith willing to give God at least a 0.05% chance of selecting the rationally superior outcome?

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  22. tremorAugust 2, 2009 at 4:33 PM

    Lol @ Bebo playing devil's role.

    "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, "' He will command his angels concerning you,' and "'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'" (7) Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

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  23. BenYachovAugust 3, 2009 at 6:44 AM

    >I would like you to then consider my proposition not as an experiment at all, but simply as an opportunity to give money to a good cause.

    I reply: You just for the sake of argument conceded my point that a coin toss would prove nothing even if the Christian God exists. So why should I do it? It proves nothing.

    I think "tremor" said it best. If I'm going to pray to God for something it will be for a genuine need I have (like "Oh God please help me with my three autistic children in the Name of Jesus"!) or I pray to get close to Him. It is blasphemy according to Jesus to simply pray in order to test God. Asking God to reveal Himself to you is valid but it means you ask him to do it on His own terms & you look for the signs.

    Of course in natural terms I have found philosophy, reason & science are the best ways but that's just me.

    > Would you like to take me up on the offer? Or do you believe that the probability of God's intervention is less than five-hundredths of one percent?

    I reply: How can you logically assign a probability value to the behavior of an omniscient, omnipotent & Supernatural Being? Probability is ascribed to natural events that have a measurable degree of probable uncertainty. God is not in that category. God is Pure Actuality (according to Aristotle, Aquinas, Maimonides etc) & contains NO POTENCY so you can't by definition give him a probability value.

    Again it is STILL no matter how you praise it
    no better than challenging me to find the Andromeda Galaxy under a microscope. Reason & science are learned skills. Just because you deny gods doesn't automatically make you rational.
    Your challenge proves that.

    >Considering that you would be asking for something selfless that would help carry out God's work on Earth, why would you consider the probability of intervention to be so low?

    I reply: Again you are making assumptions that are inherently illogical. In essence you are merely repeating your same invalid argument. It's silly especially after conceding my point.

    >What is gained, from God's perspective, for allowing this experiment to favor me?

    I reply: You question falsely assumes God has "needs" which is absurd. God doesn't need anything.

    >Is there anyone with stronger faith willing to give God at least a 0.05% chance of selecting the rationally superior outcome?

    I reply: Again God is not The Force so it is an invalid question.

    I'm sorry but this is not a clever or rational argument. At best it is an argument designed to attack the simple faith of 6th graders. Those of us who are adults who have studied some philosophy, some science & logic can only roll our eyes at it.

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  24. BenYachovAugust 3, 2009 at 6:54 AM

    >What is gained, from God's perspective, for allowing this experiment to favor me?

    I reply: God if you really exist then allow this Post to appear on the Internet & don't take if off.

    Well what do you know it's a miracle!!!!

    ROTFLOL!!!

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  25. BeboAugust 3, 2009 at 11:01 PM

    BenYachov,

    Most of the actions that I take are not for the purpose of proving some point. I assume that you are the same. I am simply asking if you think that my offer is something in which you would like to participate, merely for the purpose of helping an atheist's money go to a good Christian cause. Clearly not. However, if I changed the value 42/60 correct to 4/60 correct, I assume that you would perk up and change your mind. You are a rational agent with at least a vague understanding of probability and a set of preferences over future states. I'm just asking you to make a rational decision, based on your beliefs.

    The tool of probability is perfectly capable of capturing uncertainty of belief in future states even when those future states are affected by rational agents. For example, based on polling results, you could make the statement, "I believe that with probability 55%, the Republican will win." Even though voters will vote deterministically in the end,
    we can use probability to capture our uncertainty in the belief states of those agents.

    Assuming that you are rational, you are risk neutral, and you would prefer the outcome in which the church gets $10K over the outcome that I get $10, then it simply follows from the math that you assign a very low probability to God's intervention. The probability may even be as low as 0.

    I'm just trying to figure out why you, as a person who believes in God, believe that the chances of God's intervention are so low. Perhaps it's as simple as what tremor said--basically, that because it is a sin to test God, the outcome would result in my favor instead to teach you a lesson or something like that.

    The problem I have with tremor's response is that because I have conceded all of your points, this bet would not be a test of God. I'm not at all saying that it would be irrational to believe in God if the coin tosses didn't go your way. So, this would be no more of a test of God than praying for your cancer to be cured or praying for the drought to end. There is a preferable outcome, you ask God, if he doesn't do what you ask, you don't let it sway your faith. It's the same deal here--except it's even better because you're asking for something that doesn't benefit you personally, but instead, it benefits God's work on earth.

    Now if you have a problem with gambling, even when you don't benefit personally, that's fine. I can respect that. But if your reason for not participating is because of your belief about the outcome, then I want to know why. Talk of microscopes and Andromeda aren't helping your case. I'll respect your intelligence enough not to point out the myriad differences between your examples and the situation at hand. I'm sure that you are aware of them already.

    It's true that this is a test, but it's not a test of God's existence, power, or will. It's a test of your faith, and so far you're failing. I'm calling you out for claiming that "prayer works" and then living as if it does not.

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  26. BenYachovAugust 5, 2009 at 10:10 AM

    >Most of the actions that I take are not for the purpose of proving some point. I assume that you are the same. I am simply asking if you think that my offer is something in which you would like to participate, merely for the purpose of helping an atheist's money go to a good Christian cause. Clearly not.

    I reply: This is clearly a silly stunt. If you want to give money to charity then give. If not well “the poor you will have with you always”.


    >However, if I changed the value 42/60 correct to 4/60 correct, I assume that you would perk up and change your mind. You are a rational agent with at least a vague understanding of probability and a set of preferences over future states. I'm just asking you to make a rational decision, based on your beliefs.

    I reply: Reason dictates it is absurd to apply probability values to the actions of a purely metaphysical timeless being. Just like it is absurd to try to measure a length of time using Kilograms. You keep making the same category mistakes therefore I conclude you just don’t know what you are talking about.

    >The tool of probability is perfectly capable of capturing uncertainty of belief in future states even when those future states are affected by rational agents. For example, based on polling results, you could make the statement, "I believe that with probability 55%, the Republican will win." Even though voters will vote deterministically in the end,
    we can use probability to capture our uncertainty in the belief states of those agents.

    I reply: Do explain how you would use probability to measure the actions of an A-temporal Being? Besides metaphysically if we believed in an Atheistic Universe governed by Super Determinism then all probability measurements would be worthless anyway.

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  27. BenYachovAugust 5, 2009 at 10:11 AM

    >Assuming that you are rational, you are risk neutral, and you would prefer the outcome in which the church gets $10K over the outcome that I get $10, then it simply follows from the math that you assign a very low probability to God's intervention. The probability may even be as low as 0.

    I reply: Son if you want to give money to a good cause then do it. I see no rational reason to dignify your foolish stunt.

    >I'm just trying to figure out why you, as a person who believes in God, believe that the chances of God's intervention are so low.

    I reply: I don’t believe by nature probability values can be meaningfully applied to the actions of God. You keep making Dawkins mistake of conceiving of God as a being whose nature is like ours only “Better” or “Uber”. That is not correct & it renders your criticisms invalid.

    >Perhaps it's as simple as what tremor said--basically, that because it is a sin to test God, the outcome would result in my favor instead to teach you a lesson or something like that.

    I reply: Again you are treating God like The Force. Maybe you should troll Wookiepedia?

    >The problem I have with tremor's response is that because I have conceded all of your points, this bet would not be a test of God. I'm not at all saying that it would be irrational to believe in God if the coin tosses didn't go your way.

    I reply: Then what are we talking about then & why make that challenge?

    >So, this would be no more of a test of God than praying for your cancer to be cured or praying for the drought to end. There is a preferable outcome, you ask God, if he doesn't do what you ask, you don't let it sway your faith. It's the same deal here--except it's even better because you're asking for something that doesn't benefit you personally, but instead, it benefits God's work on earth.

    I reply: You cannot pray with an unethical intention(testing God) for an ethical result. That is not moral. God in his Divine Providence will/has already furthered His work on Earth. He doesn’t need you or me.

    >Now if you have a problem with gambling, even when you don't benefit personally, that's fine. I can respect that. But if your reason for not participating is because of your belief about the outcome, then I want to know why.

    I reply: I dislike foolish irrational arguments. I respect the rational Atheist like Quentin Smith who challenges the possibility of God on the grounds (according to him) an A-temporal being could not act in a temporal continuum. I have no respect for teenagers who challenge God to give them a pony & conclude because he doesn’t have a pony God does not exist. That is about as meaningful as saying my wedding ring keeps away tigers. Why? Well I don’t see any tigers.

    It’s STUPID!!!!!!! Deal with it.


    >Talk of microscopes and Andromeda aren't helping your case. I'll respect your intelligence enough not to point out the myriad differences between your examples and the situation at hand. I'm sure that you are aware of them already.

    I reply: I’ve already shown you are making a category mistake AND I just gave an example of how you could have an Atheistic Universe where probabilities where useless(i.e. SuperDeterminism)..

    >It's true that this is a test, but it's not a test of God's existence, power, or will. It's a test of your faith, and so far you're failing. I'm calling you out for claiming that "prayer works" and then living as if it does not.

    I reply: My Faith tells me that “reason proceeds faith”-Thomas Aquinas.
    Or as St. Paul puts it “Give the reason for the Hope you have within you”. You are judging me faithless according to the standards of the heresy of Fideism. Sorry but I’m Catholic & I don’t believe in faith alone(James 2:24) & I don’t believe in Fideism which was condemned by the First Vatican Council more then a century ago either. Prayer does work as prayer but it is still nothing like Jedi Force Powers.

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  28. AnonymousAugust 7, 2009 at 7:12 AM

    I agree with what tremor said:

    "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, "' He will command his angels concerning you,' and "'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'" (7) Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

    However, funnily enough, my young daughter and I were playing "flip a coin" and she wanted to win - so she prayed out loud and chose heads 17 times in a row. When she was finished with the game, I flipped the coin again and it was tails. Strange but true.

    When God said to Elijah to challenge the powers of Baal - it was God's timing, not presumption.

    When God chooses to give a sign, that's up to Him. In the meantime, I continue to pray for the sick, see some success but not as much as I'd like but I expect to see more as my faith grows.

    I've seen the things discussed with my own eyes. Trying to postulate that prayer "doesn't work" is irrelevant when those of us who have seen it work have the experience and the rational to "prove" it.

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  29. AnonymousAugust 17, 2009 at 11:08 AM

    When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness.

    - Emo Phillips

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