12/10/09

Hey Atheists, Leave Those Kids Alone (and parents such as myself, while you are at it), part 1

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Posted by Ken
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10 comments:

  1. RexDecember 10, 2009 at 8:35 AM

    Wow!

    You really don't get it do you?

    All of the ads and "propaganda" that you are referring to is about creating a world where children are exposed to and educated about as many different world views and opinions and facts as possible. The point is that if they have all of the available information, then they will be able to make reasoned, informed life choices about everything, including whether or not they want to choose to believe in fairy tales when they mature.

    Indoctrinating them with the fear of hell that a book written by men has all of the answers that they will ever need, and denying the existence of other world views, does not promote a mindset that allows rational, dispassionate analysis of concepts that may run counter to the indoctrination, and it sets us on a return course to the middle ages.

    If faith is so great, then it should have no problem competing on a level playing field of differing world views. The problem is that a good percentage of the believers are so fearful that their faith will be exposed as a sham, that the highest priority is to remove non belief from the discussion.

    Way to pass on your fears to the next generation!

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  2. AspentrollDecember 10, 2009 at 9:46 AM

    Rex: that was a great and logical statement. Xtians have been homeschooling their kids to prevent any kind of world view other than theirs for years. Xtians just can't stand anyone believing different than them, anyone else is hell bound and considered a "dirty" atheist. It's time for them to realize that they are the minority when it comes to what the other people of the world believe. Their pastors and priests are to blame for the bigotry that goes on today.
    They can see the money on the collection plate getting less and less. They are fighting for their jobs and being very un-Christian about it.
    It's time for them to keep their dubious beliefs to themselves.

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  3. WhatevermanDecember 10, 2009 at 11:19 AM

    It seems jovially ironic to me that a group decrying the lack of "free speech" (ie. "god" being kept out of science classes) would whine about the presence of a bus ad or billboard.

    Persecution complex much?

    Educate your kids as you see fit. Stop trying to tell other people how to educate theirs.

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  4. KenDecember 10, 2009 at 8:13 PM

    All,
    Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
    I am not sure how much evidence it will take, but I will keep providing it as it is bountiful.

    This is further proof of atheistic indoctrination of children by their parents and as encouraged by atheist organizations.

    Yes, occasionally under very thin veneer of teaching merely unbiased critical thinking. But if you stop to think critically yourselves you will see it for what it very obviously is; atheists doing the very same things with their children that they condemn when others do it with their own children.

    Get it? It is not about one side does not doing it and the other not; it is about the atheist side doing it, then pretending that they are not, then condemning the other side in disgusting terms, and then getting adherents such as yourselves to maintain well-within-the-box-atheist-group-think by supporting them uncritically.

    Since both are doing the same things, they should stop wasting money on ads that only end up proving their hypocrisy.

    aDios,
    Mariano

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  5. BenYachovDecember 11, 2009 at 8:15 AM

    Ouch!

    Mariano just PWND you guys.

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  6. WhatevermanDecember 11, 2009 at 10:47 AM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

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  7. WhatevermanDecember 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM

    Not likely, Ben.

    Makarios wrote the following: atheists doing the very same things with their children that they condemn when others do it with their own children.

    Get it?

    Well no, not exactly.

    To be sure, there are both theist and atheist fundamentalists, and I'm sure you'll be able to find parents somewhere who want their kids to be labeled with the parent's lack-of-belief system. The problem is that with atheism, no indoctrination is necessary for you to be an atheist. Children are atheists by default, lacking belief in God until and unless this concept is taught to them by adults.

    No, I'd never call my kids atheists, primarily because I'm not an atheist myself, but also because I'd want them to come to their own conclusions without stacking the deck via a label.

    I can't tell you how many times it's been pointed out, but the one thing in common with all atheists is a lack of belief in Gods. It's not a world view, it's not a belief system, it's not an explicit rejection of God. Atheists lack belief. And so do children.

    So no, in general there's no indoctrination with atheism. We now have atheistic "evangelism", to be sure; the bus ads are an appropriate example. In comparison to theistic evangelism, however, atheists are merely letting people know that theism isn't the only option.

    Do atheists indoctrinate and pretend they don't? In my experience, no. They're simply reacting to a deluge of theistic bigotry. Spend all your time running around telling folks how n**gers are evil and lazy, you certainly can't label statements that reject the stereotype as "evangelism" or "indoctrination".

    You brought this on yourselves. It is not being imposed upon you. Ditch the persecution complex and the bigotry.

    EDIT: deleted original and reposted to fix spelling, grammar, etc

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  8. BenYachovDecember 11, 2009 at 12:29 PM

    >To be sure, there are both theist and atheist fundamentalists, and I'm sure you'll be able to find parents somewhere who want their kids to be labeled with the parent's lack-of-belief system.

    I reply: Yes there are both theist and atheist fundamentalists & I think Mariano is taking aim at the hypocrisy of the Later. BTW it’s not fundamentalistic to impart to your children your world view or value system & naturally having free will they can choose to reject it later on in life as many do on both the Theistic & Atheistic side.

    >The problem is that with atheism, no indoctrination is necessary for you to be an atheist. Children are atheists by default, lacking belief in God until and unless this concept is taught to them by adults.

    I reply: Your slight of hand here is to define Atheism as meaning “Lacking god(s)-belief” which of course is an insufficient & historically novel definition for Atheism. Rocks, plants and unconscious persons are actively “lacking god(s) belief” but I assure you sir I am still technically a Theist even if I fall into a coma. Children lack scientific knowledge, emotional maturity, logic, toilet training etc unless taught by adults does that make the aforementioned things desirable or good? I think not.

    >No, I'd never call my kids atheists, primarily because I'm not an atheist myself, but also because I'd want them to come to their own conclusions without stacking the deck via a label.

    I reply: So you in effect “teach” your child the VALUE of “coming to their own conclusions” & you “teach” them of the moral EVIL of “labeling” people? I hate to break it too you but you are in fact indoctrinating them into a world view just as much as the Theist or Atheist who explicitly teaches their children their views on ultimate reality & metaphysics. You may teach your kids these things but the self-righteous “I’m not labeling my kids meme unlike you fundie types” is not logically consistent & that seems true regardless if God exists or not IMHO.

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  9. BenYachovDecember 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM

    >I can't tell you how many times it's been pointed out, but the one thing in common with all atheists is a lack of belief in Gods. It's not a world view, it's not a belief system, it's not an explicit rejection of God. Atheists lack belief. And so do children.

    I reply: Actually it is a belief system & a world view it’s just not a coherent one like classic theism or atheism.

    >So no, in general there's no indoctrination with atheism. We now have atheistic "evangelism", to be sure; the bus ads are an appropriate example. In comparison to theistic evangelism, however, atheists are merely letting people know that theism isn't the only option.

    I reply: I disagree unless you display total apathy toward your kids, you, by definition educate & influence them toward a world view you believe in. That is merely natural. To deny this is irrational & incoherent regardless of your views on metaphysics.

    >Do atheists indoctrinate and pretend they don't? In my experience, no. They're simply reacting to a deluge of theistic bigotry. Spend all your time running around telling folks how n**gers are evil and lazy, you certainly can't label statements that reject the stereotype as "evangelism" or "indoctrination".

    I reply: We can’t argue with your experience since it your subjective perception but others have had a different experience.

    >You brought this on yourselves. It is not being imposed upon you. Ditch the persecution complex and the bigotry.

    I reply: Rather you followers of the “Church of Lacking God belief” are making ALL THE SAME MISTAKES that evangelistically minded Theists have made in the past (& some still make) yet you are dead set against recognizing or learning from those mistakes. On one level it’s kind of sad to watch people who claim to love reason act so irrationally on another level it is brilliant comedy. My advice to you is read more Andrew Brown(an Atheist critic of Atheist Fundamentalism) & less Richard Dawkins.

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  10. Andrew DawesDecember 11, 2009 at 4:41 PM

    If I may advise...


    "Indoctrination" is a matter of perspective (duh).

    Currently, in my country of residence (U.S.A.), it is perfectly legal to raise your children under your belief system, or as you see fit. As long as your parenting is neither abusive nor negligent, it's "all good".

    So, I am forced to agree with Mariano; in this matter it is overtly hypocritical of atheists, or anyone, to demand that we raise our kids in a religion-free environment (which is, by the way, impossible). Reasons being:


    1) They quite clearly indoctrinate their children (and ours) under their system of belief (Ever heard of America's public school system?).

    2) It is perfectly within our rights, granted under our government, to "Train a child in the way he should go" (Proverbs22:6). We all share these rights. I suggest you get used to it.



    Mariano:

    Thank you for this informative post. Very well written.

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