6/3/09

Tiananmen Square Massacre

Tiananmen Square Massacre
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Posted by Ken
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19 comments:

  1. TEDJune 3, 2009 at 5:11 PM

    Really? Mariano, this is just plain dumb.

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  2. KenJune 3, 2009 at 5:31 PM

    Arguments for embarrassment are highly illogical.

    aDios,
    Mariano .

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  3. kh123June 4, 2009 at 7:54 PM

    I think you hurt Ted's feelings.

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  4. HuminaJune 5, 2009 at 4:44 AM

    Wait, you mean lack of religion made that guy stand in front of the tank?

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  5. ReynoldJune 6, 2009 at 5:32 PM

    What TED probably was trying to say, Mariano, is that you're poisoning the well again. You're conflating totalitarianism COMMUNISM with "atheism". Their religion is the state.

    If you really want to "imagine no religion", try the picture of the World Trade Center towers still standing.

    Or a world where the crusades, inquisition and witch hunts never happened. Or where the convert or die philosophy of the North American colonists was never carried out on the native americans. Though I'm sure you'll find some way to dance around that, while pinning as much as you can on "atheism".

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  6. kh123June 7, 2009 at 4:53 PM

    Ah, bravo! Again, more moving crocodile tears from those atheists moved by the death of those under the sword of the Caliphate mujahideen (both past and present).

    Strange that resident critics here never bring up Islamic Jihad by name - but I suppose those representatives from other religions (the ones who don't wear Counter Strike costumes anyhow), those civilized sheep are easier to tag with yellow star armbands. Easier to target those that won't fight back with swords and staves - or AK's. (And I'm sure the Nazis realized this neat little trick as well. The Bolsheviks did too, come to think of it - how many Orthodox Churches were closed by those Atheist Defenders of Truth in Budenny caps?)

    ...But I wonder if our resident heart-on-sleeve Dawkinites ever shed tears for the more recent (and still continuing) victims of Communism - a political doctrine which has, as a central tenant, that belief in God is "the opiate of the masses"; or that all human progress and activity can be broken down to "an ape picked up a stone".

    Oh wait, that's right... the logical fruits of atheism didn't push those hundreds of millions of corpses into the ground in both Russia and China (nor those survival of the fittest doctrines of the 19th Century - penned by an Englishman, borrowed by a German economist).



    Not at all! Those deaths were due to... some nameless abstract method of State. Which had nothing to say about the existence or non-existence of God, nor of what is permissible if no final judgement looms for those who murder their neighbors. (One wonders if Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot [the list goes on!], if any of these men had any inkling of their own day of reckoning when they utilized "Red Terror".)



    So really, it's all very convenient - Atheism is somehow free from the evils of Communism, Nazism, and the Dahmer Imperative.

    But I guess you're right, you Sons of Dawkins. The mujahideen fought so bitterly against the Soviet Union - or dropped those towers with airliners - because of some similar abstract political concept, and not rather as a reaction to the academic party line of the West, which happily trumpets its secular enlightenment with a tenacity (and arrogance) equivalent to the Roman Empire on a Red Light binge.

    Dawkins calls religion evil? No problem! Not atheism's fault if some don't take kindly to it. Gould calls religious morality exclusive from scientific reality? No sweat! It has nothing to do with how civil law - including medical bioethics - will be dictated to the rest of the world (especially from Harvard). Marx, Freud, Sagan, et al equate metaphysics with either a mental disorder or with witch doctor quackery? Well no fault to atheists if Islam recognizes this as imperialism encroaching upon its own societal core...

    Darwin equated non-Europeans (including Native Americans) as being closer to anthropomorphous apes? Not atheism's fault if the pale face took that statement literally when they "manifested their destiny" genetically speaking, and threw innumerable of those strange peoples (or "subhumans" as they saw them) onto that long winding trail of tears and blood...



    And, again, this somehow has nothing to do with the claim that metaphysics has no factual basis in reality...



    So, once more, Atheism comes out clean and spotless. And non-accountable. Just like our resident Atheist Anons. Happy days.

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  7. Marcus WellingtonJune 7, 2009 at 6:58 PM

    Dahmer

    was a born-again Christian. Forgiven of his sins and soon to be in Heaven!

    (the dead sleep in their graves until Jesus returns to judge them so Dahmer isn't in Heaven yet)

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  8. ReynoldJune 8, 2009 at 1:12 AM

    kh123
     
    Ah, bravo! Again, more moving crocodile tears from those atheists moved by the death of those under the sword of the Caliphate mujahideen (both past and present).
     
    "Crocodile tears"? F&&k you. I can, with just as much justification, say that your so-called "concern" for those who die under communism (NOT "evolution" and NOT atheism) is just "crocodile tears" then, too.


    Not at all! Those deaths were due to... some nameless abstract method of State. Which had nothing to say about the existence or non-existence of God,
     
    Those deaths were becuase they were considered to be "in the way" or a "threat" to those sods in power, that's it.

    nor of what is permissible if no final judgement looms for those who murder their neighbors. (One wonders if Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot [the list goes on!], if any of these men had any inkling of their own day of reckoning when they utilized "Red Terror".)
     
    Thinking about that didn't stop the killings done in the name of religion throughout the centuries, did it?


    Oh wait, that's right... the logical fruits of atheism didn't push those hundreds of millions of corpses into the ground in both Russia and China (nor those survival of the fittest doctrines of the 19th Century - penned by an Englishman, borrowed by a German economist).
     
    Although said sarcastically, it's the only thing in your brainless rant that's actually true.

    As for "survival of the fittest", you don't have a clue. Do some reading for a change. Here, let me help: here

    This claim exemplifies the naturalistic fallacy by arguing that the way things are implies how they ought to be. It is like saying that if someone's arm is broken, it should stay broken. But "is" does not imply "ought." Evolution is descriptive. It tells how things are, not how they should be.

    Humans, being social, improve their fitness through cooperation with other people. Even if survival of the fittest were taken as a basis for morals, it would imply treating other people well.

    As for "Communism" what in hell makes you think that it's of any logical relation to "atheism"? Extreme capitalists also can use atheism and even the "survival of the fittest" (in the same manner as you've used it), that shows that atheism and communism are not logically connected, but rather that the dictators of the USSR just used it; kind of like Calvin used xianity to justify what he did in Geneva.

    By the way, about that bullshit that atheists are too cowardly to take on Muslims:

    here

    And by the way, I'll be happy to donate money to send Ray Comfort to, say, Karachi or Riyadh so he can preach his beliefs to the Muslims there as he dares atheists to do. Let me know when you wanna leave, Ray, I bet we can get a whole lot of evil unbelievers to pay for your plane ticket. Let's see just how brave you are.

    Since Ray's too chicken shit to take him up on his offer, why don't you?

    Guess what? We offend Muslims too.

    One thing that you don't realize is that in the West, Muslims are a very small minority. They don't have the political power to influence things like the xians do, so we focus on the group that affects us most.

    Just like our resident Atheist Anons.
     
    So I take it that kh123 is your birth name or something, since you seem to be taking a shot at those "atheist anons"?

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  9. kh123June 14, 2009 at 2:44 PM

    Ok, so... Reynolds Wrap made some fairly good points earlier, so let's review:

    -"Love they neighbor" logically leads to "murder thy neighbor". Right, duly noted.


    -Communism has nothing to say about theology, and in fact does not have atheism in its central tenants. Hence Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zhedong, and countless other Communist liberators seem to have really gotten their Marx wrong when they said that religion was the opiate of the masses, that economy is simply the continuation of an ape picking up a stone...

    Right, my mistake. So glad talkorigins - that neutrally motivated atheist webpage - set me straight on that. That was a close call; I might've actually followed history instead of the angry American undergrad view of.

    -Atheism wasn't responsible for literally over hundreds of millions of deaths during the 20th Century, nor were atheist heads of state in any way "atheist" in their own views or their actual policies.

    Hmm, well besides being internally incoherent, Rey's view of history is news to Germany and Russia, since they had to actually live under the yoke of said liberation. But thanks for sharing that with us such enlightened history from the bosom of Canada, Rey.

    Although, Rey was right on one point, I must admit.

    -Fear of judgment didn't deter those folks who partook of the Inquisition and such - they staked those tens of thousands of bodies (not hundreds of millions) without fear of reprisal from a higher authority. Indeed, there are quite a few inconsistent Christians or religious folks out there - who say one thing but then practically live by the tenants of another... which in this case, were actions more akin to those who purged and liberated in the name of, say, Communism or Socialism - those completely theologically neutral political programs. (Thanks again for showing us that with a hyperlink.)

    I guess one could say that they while many a Christian were inconsistent with "love thy neighbor", they were quite consistent little atheists: No fear of God or judgment, survival of the fittest, all things are permissible - including collectivization and genetic cleansing, etc.


    And you're right, it is difficult to cry over statistics involving mass killings, genocide, purges, pogroms, and various other weekend activities enjoyed by the Nazis and Bolsheviks. When you're dealing with hundreds of millions of people, it's hard to keep track. Which is why I don't attempt to wear the heart on the sleeve while dropping the red hot croc tears over people I didn't know. It would just by hypocritical to do so, wouldn't you think, Rey?...


    Ah, so the Pharyngulass crowd make idiots out of themselves in front of an international Muslim audience. Wow, what a badge of honor that is. Thanks for at least confirming one of my points earlier: That the "smarter-than-thou" jackassery of Western atheists contributes to the Islamic community's hatred of the west - and its support for the mujahideen. So glad that those Dawkinites can find the time inbetween their spamming Christian websites and late night WoW sessions in order to help strengthen international relations.


    And yes, it's true: Your keen sense of observation has clued you in to the fact that my handle is not in fact my real name. Although it is derived from the numbering system that was in use in the Russian prison system - akin to the Nazi tattooing of numbers on forearms.

    Seems to be a reoccuring thing with atheist regimes: They seem to see people not as people, but rather as numbers. Suppose that's inevitable when you see folks merely as things, as more mouths to feed (or "F&&K", to use your erudite terminology).


    Besides, given your sunny disposition here, is it any wonder why I don't volunteer that information? Maybe you'd like to drop some of your bank account info in the comment box - after all, we're all friends here, aren't we.

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  10. ReynoldJune 15, 2009 at 6:34 AM

    kh123:

    Ok, so... Reynolds Wrap made some fairly good points earlier, so let's review:

    -"Love they neighbor" logically leads to "murder thy neighbor". Right, duly noted.
     
    Nice cherry picking. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" "those who blaspeme the name of the Lord shall be put to death".


    -Communism has nothing to say about theology, and in fact does not have atheism in its central tenants. Hence Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zhedong, and countless other Communist liberators seem to have really gotten their Marx wrong when they said that religion was the opiate of the masses,
     
    Only one said that, not all. So what? Did they do what they did in the name of atheism? Did they obey some atheist tenet? No.

    that economy is simply the continuation of an ape picking up a stone...
     
    And you keep mixing up apples and oranges.


    Right, my mistake. So glad talkorigins - that neutrally motivated atheist webpage
     
    Wrong as usual. They do have xians over there...as for being "atheist" please check out their God and Evolution FAQ

    - set me straight on that.
     
    If you had actually bothered reading some of it they maybe would have.

    That was a close call; I might've actually followed history instead of the angry American undergrad view of.
     
    Instead of your kindergarten level stuff?

    -Atheism wasn't responsible for literally over hundreds of millions of deaths during the 20th Century, nor were atheist heads of state in any way "atheist" in their own views or their actual policies.
     
    Exactly. It was COMMUNISM. Plus, there's something else: There were proportionally more people in the 20th century than in the Middle Ages, plus there were more efficient weapons of mass distruction.

    For some perspective, look at the religiosly-influenced 30 Years War in the German states. About one third of the people got killed there. Numerically by absolute numbers, it's not that much. But what would that be in today's numbers?

    A true student of history like yourself should be able to appreciate that.

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  11. ReynoldJune 15, 2009 at 6:35 AM

    Hmm, well besides being internally incoherent, Rey's view of history is news to Germany and Russia, since they had to actually live under the yoke of said liberation.
     
    The Nazis were xian-based. Russia was communist/totalitarian. Thanks for losing.

    But thanks for sharing that with us such enlightened history from the bosom of Canada, Rey.
     
    Thanks.

    Although, Rey was right on one point, I must admit.

    -Fear of judgment didn't deter those folks who partook of the Inquisition and such - they staked those tens of thousands of bodies (not hundreds of millions) without fear of reprisal from a higher authority. Indeed, there are quite a few inconsistent Christians or religious folks out there - who say one thing but then practically live by the tenants of another... which in this case, were actions more akin to those who purged and liberated in the name of, say, Communism or Socialism - those completely theologically neutral political programs. (Thanks again for showing us that with a hyperlink.)
     
    All they did was cherry pick the parts of your holy book that suited their purpose. Either way, they got it from your religion's holy book.

    I guess one could say that they while many a Christian were inconsistent with "love thy neighbor", they were quite consistent little atheists: No fear of God or judgment, survival of the fittest, all things are permissible - including collectivization and genetic cleansing, etc.
     
    Where do you get this shit? Where do atheists say that "all things are permissible"? What makes you think that "survival of the fittest" means only fighting and killing to survive? If you'd put that phrase in the search function in the Talk Origins archive, you'd learn something.


    And you're right, it is difficult to cry over statistics involving mass killings, genocide, purges, pogroms, and various other weekend activities enjoyed by the Nazis and Bolsheviks. When you're dealing with hundreds of millions of people, it's hard to keep track. Which is why I don't attempt to wear the heart on the sleeve while dropping the red hot croc tears over people I didn't know. It would just by hypocritical to do so, wouldn't you think, Rey?...
    So you don't claim to care about any of those people killed then? WTF??


    Ah, so the Pharyngulass crowd make idiots out of themselves in front of an international Muslim audience.
     
    Wow, guess what the Muslim reaction was. PZ Myers summed it up: NOTHING. Why was this done? Some brainless idiot had said that atheists were chickens because we (in his ignorant mind) didn't go after atheists the way we do xians.

    Wow, what a badge of honor that is. Thanks for at least confirming one of my points earlier: That the "smarter-than-thou" jackassery of Western atheists contributes to the Islamic community's hatred of the west - and its support for the mujahideen.
     
    Why don't you ask a Muslim himself?

    Then there's this, this...

    So glad that those Dawkinites can find the time inbetween their spamming Christian websites and late night WoW sessions in order to help strengthen international relations.
     
    We're not buggering them up like the xian fundies in the american military are, nor did we call for the Iraq war, based on the lie of WMD in the first place. That was your guy, Bush.

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  12. ReynoldJune 15, 2009 at 6:36 AM

    And yes, it's true: Your keen sense of observation has clued you in to the fact that my handle is not in fact my real name. Although it is derived from the numbering system that was in use in the Russian prison system - akin to the Nazi tattooing of numbers on forearms.
     
    And I care why, exactly?

    Seems to be a reoccuring thing with atheist regimes: They seem to see people not as people, but rather as numbers.
     
    And life under John Calvin's Geneva was a picnic, as was life under the xian Inquisition or the Crusades, or the persecutions that was done in the active name of your religion of the natives in N. America and Australia?

    Suppose that's inevitable when you see folks merely as things, as more mouths to feed (or "F&&K", to use your erudite terminology).
     
    Pot, kettle, black. See above. Besides, where do you get the idea that atheists in general have that view of people anyway? Some xian site? Some pulpit pounder? We figure that this life is all that there is, so there's no sense in wasting it, or killing each other over different views. Contrast that with the bible's "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" comment.


    Besides, given your sunny disposition here, is it any wonder why I don't volunteer that information?
     
    Oh yeah, like I'd track you down. Paranoid much?

    Maybe you'd like to drop some of your bank account info in the comment box - after all, we're all friends here, aren't we.
     
    Why the hell should I do that?

    I'm only pointing out that if you're not using your name, you shouldn't take shots at other people (ex. atheist "anon") for not using theirs. It's hypocrosy, pure and simple.

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  13. kh123July 15, 2009 at 1:42 AM

    Well Rey, I skipped most of your undergrad grocery lists, since such epic writing skills as yours tend to overwhelm the average reader.

    Beyond your excellent 8th Grade Social Studies report skills however, I did spy at least a few solid points that stood out for their keen observations, impartial rhetoric, and mushwit Biden reasoning. Shall we begin, for our audience of +0 readers?...

    [In response to the Who's Who of 20th Century Tyrants and their connection to Darwin, Marx, and atheism, Reynold delightfully responds} "Only one said that, not all. So what? Did they do what they did in the name of atheism? Did they obey some atheist tenant? No."


    Oh how true! Atheism has no tenant of beliefs at all! Except that no God exists. And that there's no truth at all - except that there's absolutely no truth [which is itself an absolutely true tenant]. And that man is an animal, a product of a faceless and thoughtless process of nature. And that people should do what thou wilst while the gettin's good (including seizing power, or promoting social agendas before their 4 years are up...)

    Phew! Close call! And I was getting worried - after all, a recent publication by Chronicle Books (Art from the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, p. 129) showcases a Red Chinese poster of Darwin, with an equally Red quote from Lenin, reading: "Darwin put an end to the belief that the animal and vegetable species bear no relation to one another, except by chance, and that they were created by God, and hence immutable."


    Wow. A Chinese communist poster, with Darwin. With a quote from Lenin about how evolution proves atheism, and thus gives impetus to communism.


    Not to mention those other bothersome quotes from Sir Arthur Keith (along with numerous other scholars since) citing how Hitler's European Surprise Party was directly related to his commitment to Darwinian Evolution. (Keith used the cute description of "bloodbath" and "debauchery" if I remember correctly)...


    But, forget that. An anonymous atheist said otherwise. Much more credible.

    And let's not forget about Hitlers' nominally Roman Catholic background. I suppose it was that lukewarm character to their "xianity" that caused Hitler to burp one evening after dinner, stretch out his legs, and to declare that the Church within the Greater Reich needed to be dismantled and ultimately destroyed.

    The Rutgers School of Law has several archived volumes from various Nuremberg sources, showing point for point how that pesky "xian" Hitler was going to make the State subservient to "The Iron Laws of Nature" (Darwinism) rather than any of those stupid Christian "Love Thy Neighbor" or "Thou Shalt" edicts.

    Major American papers and the AP ran the story back around '02. ("Papers Reveal Nazi Aim: End Christianity"; "Hitlers War on Christ"; Etc) 'Suppose talkorigins hasn't gotten around to getting their daily papers for the past decade or so. Or you, for that matter.

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  14. kh123July 15, 2009 at 1:44 AM

    [Resident commentator Reynolds Wrap (full name withheld) continues...]

    "Pot, kettle, black..."


    Ah, and speaking of Hitler. Something else to add to the long list of basement-atheist credentials: Racist. Of course, being a religiophobe is quite the honorary title to begin with - just ask Dawkins!

    "Besides, where do you get the idea that atheists in general have that view of people anyway?"


    Well, beyond your own warm words of tolerance, understanding, and sausage grinding:

    I suppose all of those bodies in mass graves tends to wake some folks up to the fact that there's usually a slight probability of genocide (with a 99% chance of totalitarianism) when those who seek to supplant God with their own selves (i.e., atheists) take power. Or for that matter, those who think there is no highter authority to punish their little outings with Zyklon B, Gulags, kolkhozes, or other incomprehensible terms (i.e., atheists once again).

    "Some xian site?"


    Common sense mostly. I know, it's a foreign concept to trolls such as yourself who hide out anonymously under those same "xian" bridges (like this site, for instance).

    "Some pulpit pounder?"


    Well, Sagan and Dawkins do need some competition now and then. Not to mention that awesome "xian" Adolf, or those Caliphate Imams you seem to dialog so well with.

    "Contrast that with the bible's "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" comment."


    Ah, you mean someone who ritually cuts their childrens' throats, throws them into a communal fire, and engages in drug-fueled orgiastic practices after the fact, in honor of golden cattle effigies, flies, and mutant politicians? I know, we ought to be tolerant of such people - it wouldn't be politically correct to not allow certain folks to do what thou will, right? After all, when in Carthage! (or Hell)...


    Besides the obvious fact that "witches" - as understood by those nefarious Jews (ah! another group for you to tar-and-feather! It's their "Law" you cited, after all!) - when "witches" who practice "pharmikaeon" (drug use) in sexually charged religious rites are anachronistic and no longer exist...

    And, given the fact that this mitzvot as understood by "xians" is no longer in effect, since it was indeed a "mitzvot", which is said and done with as far as Christians are concerned. (This is why Jews and Christians don't party on Saturdays or Sundays with one another)...

    I wonder though, religious scholar extraordinaire Reynold... how many "witches" have you seen those wicked mobs of "xians" (or even Jews) burn on your front lawn? And this time, you can't use your hedges or mag stacks as an excuse for why you couldn't see it happening...

    "It's hypocrosy, pure and simple."


    Actually, it's more like bothering to spell check with Microsoft Word. "Hypocrisy"...

    Guess epic writing doesn't leave much room for proper spelling, grammar, or reasoning. Rock on, Rinaldo.

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  15. ReynoldJuly 17, 2009 at 6:17 AM

    Well, to examine this stuff in no particular order:

    Wow. A Chinese communist poster, with Darwin. With a quote from Lenin about how evolution proves atheism, and thus gives impetus to communism.
     
    Wow. A communist taking something that Darwin did, and using it for their own ends. Like that kind of thing has never happened before...Read Mein Kampf and see how many times Hitler said stuff like he was doing the Lord's work in fighting against the Jew, or that he admired people like Martin Luther.

    Even better, read Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-- 1 October 1946, Vol. 12,

    p.318     where Julius Streicher had said:

    Julius Streicher (one of Hitler's top henchmen and publisher of the anti-Semitic Der Sturmer) was asked during the Nuremberg trials if there were any other publications in Germany which treated the Jewish question in an anti-Semitic way., Streicher put it well:
    "Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book 'The Jews and Their Lies,' Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them..."

    Something that you fail to realize: You and Mariano keep using the Appeal to Consequences of a Belief to argue against atheism: Even if all of what you said was not cherry-picked bullshit, the so-called "fact" that atheism and "darwinism" can have bad consequences if used, has no bearing on whether it's actually true or not.

    Time for a strawman:
    Oh how true! Atheism has no tenant of beliefs at all! Except that no God exists. And that there's no truth at all - except that there's absolutely no truth [which is itself an absolutely true tenant]. And that man is an animal, a product of a faceless and thoughtless process of nature. And that people should do what thou wilst while the gettin's good (including seizing power, or promoting social agendas before their 4 years are up...)
     
    So atheists don't believe god exists...so what? Does that mean that we should do whatever we want no matter what? How many atheists actually believe and follow that asinine strawman of yours? We believe in laws and social order as much as the next person, otherwise, people's lives would be chaotic and short.

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  16. ReynoldJuly 17, 2009 at 6:24 AM

    I suppose all of those bodies in mass graves tends to wake some folks up to the fact that there's usually a slight probability of genocide (with a 99% chance of totalitarianism) when those who seek to supplant God with their own selves (i.e., atheists) take power. Or for that matter, those who think there is no highter authority to punish their little outings with Zyklon B, Gulags, kolkhozes, or other incomprehensible terms (i.e., atheists once again).
     
    And I suppose all the acts of genocide in the bible were themselves spurned on by atheism, no. They were supposedly commanded by "God".

    As an example of genocide coming from a religious idea/person: read Martin Luther's book On the Jews and Their Lies and read Hitler's Mein Kampf where he said he admired Luther, and read what Julius Streicher had said again...

    Read Luther's book and his Seven Point Plan:

    First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them.

    This is to be done in honor of our Lord and Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, blaspheming of his son and of his Christians....

    Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed...

    Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

    Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb...

    Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.

    Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasures of silver and gold be taken from them for safekeeping...

    Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19])

    It is no surprise, therefore, that Hitler specifically names Luther as one of his heroes. As Hitler phrased it: "Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner."[13] Darwin is nowhere to be found in this list of heroes.

    From a article by Hector Avalos, the Seven Point plan came from Luther's book On the Jews and Their Lies

    Read what Hitler had to say about atheism or "Darwinism"...in regards to your next statement:
    The Rutgers School of Law has several archived volumes from various Nuremberg sources, showing point for point how that pesky "xian" Hitler was going to make the State subservient to "The Iron Laws of Nature" (Darwinism) rather than any of those stupid Christian "Love Thy Neighbor" or "Thou Shalt" edicts.
     
    The "Iron Laws of Nature" are in regard to more than just "Darwinism"...Hitler also talked about the germ theory of disease, and of cancer in his book when talking about the Jews. Are those theories to be discarded then, too?

    As far as "Love Thy Neighbor" and "Thou Shalt" edicts: "Thou must not suffer a witch to live", "those who blashpeme the lord shall be put to death"...nice cherry picking.

    You do know that the Laws of Hammurabi are older than the supposed OT laws, right? The changes in the character of the OT and the NT especially in regards to god-ordered genocide should tell you that society's laws change over time in regards to their circumstances.

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  17. ReynoldJuly 17, 2009 at 6:33 AM

    Ah, and speaking of Hitler. Something else to add to the long list of basement-atheist credentials: Racist. Of course, being a religiophobe is quite the honorary title to begin with - just ask Dawkins!
     
    Of course, Dawkins cares about people for their own sake, as opposed to just because he's been ordered to by some "sky-daddy" who has a history of ordering genocides...

    Just where the hell do you get the idea that atheists are "racists"? Hitler was not an atheist, as any reading at all will tell you. Raised Catholic, believed in some Pagan religious ideas...hated Jews (alongside the Protestant Martin Luther).

    In regards to kh123's noting that:
    Major American papers and the AP ran the story back around '02. ("Papers Reveal Nazi Aim: End Christianity"; "Hitlers War on Christ"; Etc) 'Suppose talkorigins hasn't gotten around to getting their daily papers for the past decade or so. Or you, for that matter.
    It's him that needs to do some further reading, and you:
    From the Index to Creationist Claims is an indicator of how much Hitler liked Darwin:

    In 1935, Die Bücherei, the official Nazi journal for lending libraries listed books to reject:

    Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel).
    (Die Bücherei 1935, 279)

    They made an undated "Blacklist for Public Libraries and Commercial Lending Libraries" includes the following on a list of literature which
    "absolutely must be removed":
    c) All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk. (Blacklist n.d.)

    ReplyDelete
  18. ReynoldJuly 17, 2009 at 6:38 AM

    From Hector Avalos's article again:
    Despite telling us that Hitler's plan is different because he just hated Jews, Sarfati admits that Hitler also wanted to kill Christians. He refers us to the work of William Donovan, the American military officer who documented Hitler's war on churches. The problem is that Sarfati confuses attacks on churches opposed to Nazi religious views with attacks on Christ or "Christianity." Rather, Nazis saw themselves as the bearers of the true Christianity, just as Luther saw himself as the bearer of true Christianity.

    To illustrate this point, we need look no further than the writings of Alfred Rosenberg, a premier Nazi ideologist. He used parts of the Bible as support in     The Myth of the Twentieth Century: An Assessment of the Psychical-Spiritual Struggle of our Time, first published in 1930.[16]
    Rosenberg is best described as being against Christendom, or the organized religions such as Catholicism which had departed from what he believed to be the true teachings of Jesus.

    Avalos summarizes thus:
    Sarfati also fails to mention that any hatred of non-Nazi churches by Hitler would be equivalent to the hatred of non-Protestant churches by Protestants. The attacks on Catholic churches that took place under Protestants were not considered an attack on Christianity as much as an attack on corrupt forms of Christianity. In this respect, Hitler was not different from John Knox, who attacked the churches of rivals in Scotland, or from Henry VIII, who attacked Catholic monasteries in England. [20]


    Common sense mostly. I know, it's a foreign concept to trolls such as yourself who hide out anonymously under those same "xian" bridges (like this site, for instance).
     
    As opposed to you, who bravely post your entire real name, secure in the knowledge that god will protect you eh, kh123? (I don't want to know your real name: I just wish you wouldn't be such a hypocrite about anonymous posting)

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  19. ReynoldJuly 17, 2009 at 6:42 AM

    Not to mention those other bothersome quotes from Sir Arthur Keith (along with numerous other scholars since) citing how Hitler's European Surprise Party was directly related to his commitment to Darwinian Evolution. (Keith used the cute description of "bloodbath" and "debauchery" if I remember correctly)...
    Wow, Sir Arthur Keith! Creationists love to quote that guy...the same guy who said:

    "The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution."

    No matter the fact that Hitler's gov't banned books dealing with evolution: (remember Die Bücherei, the official Nazi journal for lending libraries listed books to reject:

    Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel).

    (Die Bücherei 1935, 279)
    WOW! Banning Darwin's books and calling his idea a "false scientific enlightenment" really shows a "commitment to Darwinian evolution"!

    Not once in Mein Kampf did Hitler mention Darwin, while Keith, who supposedly did all that research on Hitler, ignored Hitler saying that it was a christian preacher who gave him his ideas on anti-semitism:

    (see Hitler, Mein Kampf: Volume 1, Chapter 2.

    "I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party ... The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times ... How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all."

    ReplyDelete

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