Great post, Mariano. It makes me jealous, because had you handed me the same material, and said, "Write something about this," it wouldn't have been half as good.
Considering that atheists are forced by their amoral worldviews to borrow morality from theistic systems ...So, when you borrow morality from theistic systems, you wind up with an amoral worldview.
Considering that atheists are forced by their amoral worldviews to borrow morality from theistic systems ...So, when you borrow morality from theistic systems, you wind up with an amoral worldview.I forget off hand what this fallacy is called, but your inference is broken.It was kind of funny though. I don't know if that's what you were going for, but...
Dawkins is saying that all "commandments" are man-made including the Biblical ones, which as it happens, were borrowed from the ancient Egyptians. This is true whether you believe in "God" or not.As for the "suffering of a beautiful, healthy, innocent and defenseless human baby", I take it that's fine as long as it's "God's Will", yeah?Here's the thing. Morality can only be just if the law giver, whether human or divine, is bound by it's own rules. Since the standard Judaeo-Christian vision of "God" is not bound by the rules he makes for everyone else, then that vision of God is clearly not "just".If that's the God you worship, then fair enough, bully for you.
PTET,Thank you so much for your readership and interesting comments.Actually Dawkins is making a mere assertion since he does not know it to be a fact that all commandments are manmade but his chosen worldview forces him to come to that conclusion a priori.The commandments being borrowed from the Egyptians is irrelevant since no one has ever claimed that God was bequeathing anything that no one had heard of before. In fact, that there are likewise laws in various cultures is only expected as God leaves no one unguided. God was establishing His commandments to a people who had just been freed from 400 yrs of slavery and had to be established as a nation from the ground up.As to abortion being God's Will this is simply a very weak side stepping of the issue.As to your view of morality; that it “can only be just if the law giver…is bound by it's own rules” this is arbitrary. For example, I have laid out various laws for my children to follow which I, being much bigger, stronger, and wiser than they, do not follow. God is not bound to follow the morality of humans but the ethos in the very nature of His being, His character.aDios,Mairano .
Hello Mariano. Nice talking to you :)We know these "commandments" came from men, because men wrote them down. You believe these men where inspired or directed by God - but there is no way you can prove that to any standard. It's just you asserting your belief.I didn't say abortion was God's will. I said that in your view the death, pain and suffereing of children is OK if it's God's will. That's what you believe. Why sidestep it?The actions you atrribute to God - those laid out in the Bible - are not just by human standards. You say that God is not bound by human standards. But again, all we have is your assertion based on your faith that God exists and is like this.Why should I or anyone else believe that only you and those who think like you are right about "God"?There is no reason whatsoever.BestP
"I didn't say abortion was God's will. I said that in your view the death, pain and suffereing of children is OK if it's God's will. That's what you believe. Why sidestep it?"And without God death, pain and suffering of children is OK if it's the will of the mob, because society defines morality. Majority rules. I'm not saying that's necessarily fundementally worse, but I don't see how you can argue that it's much better. The only argument for that that I can see is that mob rule is democracy and God is authoritarian, but if there are no objective morals, democracy isn't inherently better than dictatorship. And belief that what is right derives from God isn't dictatorship anyway. What kind of omnipotent dictator gives people free will? The rules have to be defined. Parents give moral guidelines to their children, because they know more than their children do. Then they give the children the chance to follow them or not. And we don't call that dictatorship, because it isn't. Even if the children could outvote the parents. Certainly some people's idea of God make him out to be a dictator, but not all.
Hi Anonymous. Thanks for your response.Mobs aren't "majorities". They are groups of people acting on impulse, in anger. Morality is something which has developed over thousands of years, by consensus. That isn't "democracy" - it's much more subtle.All you have to offer in it's place is authoratarian dictat. If God exists and God is "all-loving", then he is not as the Bible describes. It's as simple as that.Jumpin' jehosephat, most Christians in Europe realized that a long time ago. Why some Christians insist that the Bible "must be true" no matter how ludicrous that makes their supposed "God" to be is beyond me.
PTET, you assert that Mariano believes that the death, pain and suffering is OK *if* it's God's will. I think that this statement ignores a lot of things. It implies that it is God's will that we die, experience pain, and suffer, which I think is a major distortion of Christian doctrine.The Bible is pretty clear that death is a consequence of sin, and it is not the desire of God for us to die.According to the Bible, Jesus died a sacrificial death in order to save the lost from eternal death, and Jesus is God. I think this clearly demonstrates that God is not satisfied with leaving us to experience the just consequences of our sin, and therefore God is not "OK" with us dying.Consider the book of Jonah and what is communicates regarding God's desire towards man. I think it demonstrates a couple of things - one, as Jonah says about God in Jonah 4:2 "...for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love." Second, it is a good example that God pursues even those who do not honor him, which means that he really wants no one to perish, even physically in the case of Nineveh.Physically, yes, we still suffer and die, regardless of our beliefs or life choices, which is a continuing consequence of the curse and our sinful nature, yet this existence was not God's original intention for us, according to the Bible, nor is our life on this earth the sum total of our existence, according to the Bible.So it's important to point out that the Bible presents death as being something beyond just physical death, which your assertion ignores. Your assertion implies that this physical existence is all we have, yet Solomon writes in Ecclesiastes 12:7 "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."Be careful not to misrepresent the beliefs of others. It really isn't helpful to overreach and distort someone else's views. In saying this, I am assuming you are familiar with basic Christian doctrine. Whether this is true or not, I suggest you read the Bible :)