1/22/09

The Apostle Thomas : Patron Saint of Scientists?

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Posted by Ken
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5 comments:

  1. RadagastJanuary 23, 2009 at 3:55 AM

    “In ‘The God Delusion,’ a vocal atheist ignores more sophisticated concepts of God in favor of fundamentalist stereotypes.”

    If you believe in a more sophisticated concept of God, why call yourself a Christian?

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  2. AnonymousJanuary 23, 2009 at 4:35 PM

    So hold on.

    You: "Here we use Prof. Richard Dawkins’ derogatory definition of “faith” as referring to believing in something while lacking any evidence and taking pride in that fact."

    Jesus: "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"

    Jesus is obviously endorsing the kind of faith you're describing as "derogatory." Why else would he bless those who believe solely on faith?

    And since you seem to be defending Thomas's skepticism, I'm surprised you haven't picked up on the this irony: Since Thomas didn't believe the testimonial evidence from his closest friends, how on earth can you justify you're belief in testimonial evidence written 2000 years ago from people you don't know?

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  3. LeslieJanuary 23, 2009 at 9:26 PM

    I'd just point out, Jump, that I don't think that faith and belief are the same notions in the Bible. I see the Bible's use of "faith" as being more in line with "trust" which is much different than "blind belief" or what have you. Also, you are assuming in your quotation of Jesus that what Jesus meant was "blessed are those who believe in something while lacking any evidence and take pride in that fact." But I don't see that as a proper interpretation. To quote the ESV Study Bible commentary on 2 Cor. 5:7 - "This is not a reference to believing the unbelievable but to living all one's life based on confident trust in God's promises for the future, even when one cannot yet see the fullness of the coming glory." (emphasis mine)

    Of course I'm sure you still think it's bull; fair enough, but I just think it's worthwhile to be fair to the claim.

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  4. KenJanuary 29, 2009 at 7:04 PM

    Shalom aleikhem.
    Jump Tees;
    Great point. I think that after some dissection you will see that there is not a problem here.
    Let me repeat the juxtaposition:
    "…derogatory definition of “faith” as referring to believing in something while lacking any evidence and taking pride in that fact."

    "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"

    You comment on this contains a very important qualifier which is faulty and solves the prolem, “Jesus is obviously endorsing the kind of faith you're describing as ‘derogatory.’ Why else would he bless those who believe solely on faith?”

    Note that my reference derogatory is in relation to “believing in something while lacking any evidence” (and taking pride in that fact, which we can drop for now or forever).

    Jesus referred to “those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
    Seeing is one form of evidence. History is based upon another form that grows from it. History grows from eyewitnesses who retell what they saw or it grows form people who recorded what other people saw (or hear, etc.).
    Thus, we have historical evidence and this is what can count as evidence even though we have not seen. I am sure that the overwhelming majority, by a long stretch, of everything that you claim to believe are things that you have not seen, not heard, not experienced, etc.
    Skeptical Thomas was being told that the visual evidence was still available and so he requested it. That evidence is no longer available and so we have to consider the historical evidence.

    aDios,
    Mariano

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  5. AnonymousApril 30, 2009 at 6:38 PM

    The word christian means to believe in christ, so even if you dont call yourself a christian, as long as you believe in christ,you are a christian. Now if you believe in God with out christ then you dont trully believe in a God. You may ofcourse believe in a god the does not exist such as a statue made by man's hands but thats just rediculous and infact its rediculous enough to laugh at. No effense but this is the truth. Also true christians, and I do mean "true christians" do have evidence of Christ from his Spirit and His Spirits works. Those that dont know God cannot possibly understand this because God is not comprehendable. Sry, I may have spelled that wrong, lol! This is the Truth because the Holy Spirit revealed this to me!

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