Do we really have to go through this again?
Debating what? The bible does not condone rape. It's not implied anywhere in the bible except where you want to see it, so why do we have to do this?
You've got to be joking; what the hell else where they kept for? Real mercy would have involved leaving them alone. Something that's not implied by the focus on keeping the 'virgin' women for themselves.
Something's horribly, horribly wrong with that link you gave me, Mariano.
Yeah, that link goes to a site that I don't think represents the case at all; you've been hacked I think.
One thing I always find myself wanting to ask apologists who try to stick up for these passages in the Bible is 'Why?'. I mean you guys have no problem disregarding other parts of the Bible right? Like the part where Jesus tells you to sell all your stuff? Or the part where you're supposed to kill people who dont honor the Sabbath? Why not just throw the stuff about prisoners of war and slaves on the pile too. I´d certainly have a lot more respect for that kind of honesty
udges 21: 10- 24 : So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan. The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse." Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance
Numbers 31: 7-18 Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. *****Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.*******
Deuteronomy 20: 10-14: When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Exodus 21:7-11 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
Then you're blind.
Of course off the top of my head Ing ignores the fact the women of Judges 21: 10- 24 knew they would be carried off. So it wasn't done against their will. It was a pretense to make sure the tribe of Benjamin could get wives & not die out since all the other tribes swore not to "give" wives to them.That's a pretty retarded example Ign.
"It was a pretense to make sure the tribe of Benjamin could get wives & not die out since all the other tribes swore not to "give" wives to them."So you admit they stole women for breeding? How are you NOT saying "look what that slut wore she SO knew she'd be raped...so it wasn't against her will" Stop justifying ancient barbaric customs. Ancient Rome has the same event happening in their origin story, I don't bitch against that because no one pretends it's anything other than a bridenapping. The people of God acting just like a trope of horny chimps raiding another for females. Also the irony of you calling me retarded while misspelling my 3 letter name.Disregarding all that. I still put up umpteen more quotes...My position can afford to be merciful and give you that one as a gift. I'm STILL right since I still have a butt load of examples. I got even more I didn't put up. Me thinks thou doesn't protest too much. If you want to say you disagree with rape or even their actions say it. Don't try to reframe your 'heroes' actions as just. Let's phrase it this way, If Saudi Arabia made an oath not for one of their towns to be given women for brides, and they came over and carried off your daughters, even AFTER sending them an IM saying "I cN haz U as wif?" would you buy that it wasn't a hideous act? If God gave your daughter to a middle aged man would you let him marry her and use her as a walking womb to pump out his heirs? Even when he tells you "but I needed to so my family name doesn't die out"
Deuteronomy 22:28,29 (King James Version)If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."There you can rape a woman and with 50 quid own her for the rest of her life. How is that even remotely sane by our standards? And no...the wording is quite clear lay hold of her does not imply consent.
>So you admit they stole women for breeding? I reply: No I'm saying the women where likely in on it. The pretense was they had to go threw this phoney kidnapping nonsense instead of matchmaking between parents like it was normally done.You can't read the Queen's English now can you?
Deuteronomy 22:28,29 says the rapists can be forced to marry his victim if she is an unbethrothed virgin. But where does it say she has to take him? It doesn't. Also Jewish law demands finantial recompense regardless. Also according to Jewish Tradition the Israelite King can add his own laws & set up his own courts. So in theory there is no reason why an enlightened Jewish King couldn't pass a Law condemning all rapists to death if the women won't have him.The Bible didn't exist in a vacuum genius.
I was right according to the Halachah (traditional Jewish interpretation)of Deuteronomy 22:28,29 the woman MAY elect (or her father on her behalf if she is not of age) NOT to marry her attacker.http://rivypoupkokletenik.blogspot.com/2006/11/katzav-rape-torah.htmlQUOTE"Though this seems like a ridiculous cruel porspect, the economic reality of the Ancient Near East rendered a non-marriageable woman destitute and futureless. Here at least he must take responsibility for his actions. Though, if the victim chooses she may elect to not marry her attacker. The Mishnah later elaborates on the subject of damages and makes clear that "damages" could include compensation for indignity, blemish, injury and pain; a considerable reparation package.END QUOTEWell Ign so much for you.
Yeah...I don't see that in the law.And for the word of God why would you need an enlightened king to correct God's rule. God's laws should be perfect if he is perfect.
Again, I can still afford to give you one as I have a butt load of quotes that still show God sponsoring abuse. You can either defend it, or you can say that rape is always wrong and they were wrong then and the subsequent history of mankind has been a testament to us correcting and over coming such injustice. Your bible did nothing to help woman's suffrage or woman's rights and those who would wish to disfranchise women and send them back to chattel often use your book or the Qu'ran.
I was right according to the Halachah (traditional Jewish interpretation)of Deuteronomy 22:28,29 the woman MAY elect (or her father on her behalf if she is not of age) NOT to marry her attacker."I'm wondering since you're taking the Jewish interpretation of the scriptures as an authority are you willing to accept their take on Jesus? Are you trying to tell me that in 1000+ years, no one bothered to correct the bible so that it DIDN'T LOOK LIKE IT PROMOTES RAPE!? If it doesn't really say that, why hasn't ANYONE EVER FIXED IT. No we need apologists to defend a position that would be undefendable by any other book.
>Yeah...I don't see that in the law.I reply: And I should accept your "learned" interpretation over the Rabbis, Church Fathers, Popes & Doctors of the Church, why? >And for the word of God why would you need an enlightened king to correct God's rule. God's laws should be perfect if he is perfect..I reply: Yeh, I'm Catholic so I reject Sola Scriptura & the perspicuity of Scripture. BTW even Sola Scriptura Protestants say they believe you need some tradition. They claim they believe Sola Scriptura reject Solo Scriptura. Catholics & Protestants debate that issue. We don't agree.But we both agree infidels with a bias agenda are not authorities on Scripture at all. >Again, I can still afford to give you one as I have a butt load of quotes that still show God sponsoring abuse. You can either defend it, or you can say that rape is always wrong and they were wrong then and the subsequent history of mankind has been a testament to us correcting and over coming such injustice. Your bible did nothing to help woman's suffrage or woman's rights and those who would wish to disfranchise women and send them back to chattel often use your book or the Qu'ran.I reply: Well as Catholic Apologist Dr. Art Sippo once told me "A Jackass can ask more questions than a wise man can answer." Your "butt load of quotes" are not original charges & they have been answered by reason & history. BTW according to Orthodox Judaish Law, a man MAY NOT FORCE or DEMAND sex from his wife. But the wife may demand Sex from her husband. At worst if a woman absolutly refuses sex he may divorce her but he may never force her. He has to catter to her sexual needs. She need not catter to his. I have the books that teach this from Orthodox Sources. Obviously this has layed the foundation for women's rights which the NT brings into full frutation.>I'm wondering since you're taking the Jewish interpretation of the scriptures as an authority are you willing to accept their take on Jesus? I reply: What does one have to do with the other? Besides my Haydock Traditional Catholic Commentary gives an interpretation that is in essence the same as the Rabbis. So the Church Fathers & Rabbis AGREE on this application of this law. Even if they disagree on who the Messiah is.>Are you trying to tell me that in 1000+ years, no one bothered to correct the bible so that it DIDN'T LOOK LIKE IT PROMOTES RAPE!? If it doesn't really say that, why hasn't ANYONE EVER FIXED IT. No we need apologists to defend a position that would be undefendable by any other book.I reply: It seems from the Traditional Rabbinic view & the later Christian patristic view that this verse was NEVER understood as an authorization to Rape in the first place. So your implicit claim that Rapists had this verse in front of them when they violated a woman is comical.This is how stupid your argument is....if I lost my Faith & Belief in God tommorow BASED on my studies & knowlege of the Early Near East & the interpretation of Jewish Law I STILL would conclude your claim the Bible authorizes Rape to be a Joke.That is how bad your case is so deal with it.
>But I wouldn't equate those Biblical texts with 20th century definitions of rape.I reply: Most radical feminists define all heterosexual coupling as rape. Also any situation where a woman is expected or obligated to have sex with a man is defined as Rape. A woman who fornicates of her own free will but later regrets it is often said to have been raped. This by radical feminists who refuse to condemn fornication but think guys should be thrown out of college if the girl who consented to have sex with him later regrets it.OTOH there are dirt bag types who think nothing of slipping drugs or alcohol to a woman to have their way with her & believe after a certain point or under certain conditions they may overpower a woman & ignore her cries of "NO!" & take what they want.It's also a problem if a woman revokes her consent while in the middle of the sex act.There is an easy Biblical solution to all this. Only have sex in marriage & only have sex with your spouse for THEIR benefit & trust them to do the same for you. Not that rape is really about sex but about consuming another.I'll see you later guys.
First post is up.