tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post1028177083988391230..comments2024-03-21T03:09:04.479-06:00Comments on Atheism is Dead: Biblical WomenKenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-56261271488183140582009-04-02T20:28:00.000-06:002009-04-02T20:28:00.000-06:00Shalom Reynold,You are merely piling assertion upo...Shalom Reynold,<BR/>You are merely piling assertion upon assertion upon assertion such as the authoritative claim that we should base condemnation upon consequences, empathy, etc.<BR/>Why?<BR/>Every condemnation presupposes a moral doctrine of some kind and basing morality on evolution, nature, personal preferences, the personal preferences of many people, what you subjectively consider to be good or bad consequences, or what you subjectively choose to feel empathetic about are ways to excuse a worldview so devoid of meaning that it cannot even absolutely, ontologically, condemn anything at all.<BR/><BR/>aDios,<BR/>MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-85639028996596088552009-03-29T12:43:00.000-06:002009-03-29T12:43:00.000-06:00Let us first note that no atheist condemnation of ...<I>Let us first note that no atheist condemnation of the Bible is the least bit relevant in that it holds no weight whatsoever since the only thing upon which the atheist bases their condemnation is that they have a personal preference to consider something condemnable. Ask them why and they will assert another personal preference. Ask them why and they will merely pile assertion upon assertion. Condemnation discredits atheism and atheism discredits condemnation.</I><BR/>Whereas the xian bases his "condemnation and justifications" on "gods' preference".<BR/><BR/>What does god base his condemnations on? Personal preference.<BR/><BR/>Mariano isn't being fully honest here with that argument. It's not just "personal preference" but <I>consequences</I> both the the people involved and society as a whole. He also disregards things like empathy.<BR/><BR/>Is it perfect, no, but we are working on it, and it's a fair sight better than the OT and in some cases, the NT laws!Reynoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316048340050664487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-88030084439506999882009-02-04T20:08:00.000-07:002009-02-04T20:08:00.000-07:00Zilch;That it may be argued that Darwin attempted ...<B><I>Zilch</I></B>;<BR/>That it may be argued that Darwin attempted to give evidence from biology (or logic) to male chauvinism has nothing to do with whether he originated male chauvinism—he appears to have attempted the former while having nothing to do with the latter. The question of whether he made the world more chauvinistic is another issue still.<BR/>Some people were murdering Aborigines in order to stuff them and place them in museums as missing links, or placing them in zoos based on Darwinian evolution. What this says about the man Darwin or even his interpreted theory is another issue.<BR/><BR/>I suppose that the difference between God-made morality and “evolution made…reason made” is that in the one case it is potent, it is administered, it includes justice, it is premised upon an eternal character, while in the other case it is an urge upon which you can act or not act upon it and the only consequences are survival or lack thereof (at most). It is falsely dichotomous to distinguish between a God-made moral law and making hard decisions.<BR/><BR/>As for the appeal to the “jot or tittle” it is of the utmost important that Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law, He fulfilled “jot or tittle” of the Old Testament. I would agree, in part, about the difficulty in understanding certain Biblical text as we are far removed grammatically, historically and culturally from much of it and do our best to reconstruct. Yet, what you, and Emo Phillips, do not seem to consider is that the Nicene Creed is agreed upon by Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox Church—thus, the overwhelming majority by a long shot of Christians all over the planed agree on essentials.<BR/><BR/>As for 1st Corinthians ch. 14, I will assume that by now you had occasion to read the explanation. If not, please do being it up again and I will deal with it next time.<BR/><BR/>aDios,<BR/>MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-82249414444044444962009-01-30T13:23:00.000-07:002009-01-30T13:23:00.000-07:00Mariano: you said (all italics are you)-Disagree a...Mariano: you said (all italics are you)-<BR/><BR/><I>Disagree all you want with me but please have enough regard to not even entertain such hopes as that I would even imagine “claiming that male chauvinism originated with Darwin.”</I><BR/><BR/>Okay. But then what did you mean when you said, about Darwin:<BR/><BR/><I>I am not sure if we should say that he was a product of his time or that he produced his time.</I><BR/><BR/>Are you then <I>not</I> saying that Darwin "produced his time"? Fine, then if Darwin being a chauvinist did not make the world more chauvinistic, what's your beef with Darwin?<BR/><BR/><I>I would be interested to know how an absolute materialist and Darwinist condemns any form of sexism or anything else for that matter.</I><BR/><BR/>The same way you do: by listening to my heart and my mind. The only difference is that I don't believe that God made my heart and orders my mind, but rather that evolution made my heart and culture plus reason made my mind.<BR/><BR/><I>Atheist on this blog are constantly shooting off condemnations and I continually ask for their premise and they respond with either silence or ridicule.</I><BR/><BR/>There, you have my premises. Not in any detail, but I bet you couldn't tell me yours in twenty-five words or fewer either. Even if you believe in the Bible, you still have to pick and choose and make hard decisions. A case in point:<BR/><BR/><I>The Old Testament law was for a particular people, in a particular place, in a particular time, under a particular governance and it was a law upon which they had agreed.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I've heard this. I've also heard Christians quote Jesus saying "not one jot or tittle" to mean that the Old Testament still "counts"- or at least parts of it do. In fact, this is one of the reasons there are over thirty thousand Christian sects, and counting: disagreement about exactly which laws are to be followed.<BR/><BR/>I have to say, though, that it's not the fault of the Christians that they can't agree on exactly what the Bible means, because it is often vague, self-contradictory, or figurative. One might have thought that God could have got a better act together for passing on His Word. That reminds me of a little story:<BR/><BR/><B>I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! Don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. “Well, there’s so much to live for!” “Like what?” “Well… are you religious?” He said yes. I said, “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?” “Christian.” “Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant? “Protestant.” “Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?” “Baptist” “Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?” “Baptist Church of God!” “Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?” “Reformed Baptist Church of God!” “Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?” He said, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!” I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off.</B><BR/><BR/><I>As for women to not allow them to speak in church it sounds as if you have either not read the text or have not muse about it. It is not stating what you imply.</I><BR/><BR/>"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" (1 Cor. 14:33b-36 NIV).<BR/><BR/>I dunno, that seem pretty clear to me. You'd have to jump through some hoops to get sexual egalitarianism out of that. But then again, that's what apologetics is, isn't it?zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-40488073668923843252009-01-29T18:42:00.000-07:002009-01-29T18:42:00.000-07:00Shalom aleikhem to one and all.Larryniven;The leve...Shalom aleikhem to one and all.<BR/><BR/><B><I>Larryniven;</I></B><BR/>The level of my cognitive capabilities is not at issue.<BR/>Arguments from ridicule, arguments for embarrassment, arguments from outrage, ad hominems, etc., etc., etc. do not make for reasoned discourse.<BR/>I can empathize with being taken aback by not being able to respond rationally but it is better to abstain from commenting if you have nothing to say. It is a waste of precious time.<BR/><BR/>~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR/><B><I>Zilch;</I></B><BR/>Disagree all you want with me but please have enough regard to not even entertain such hopes as that I would even imagine “claiming that male chauvinism originated with Darwin.”<BR/>It would be as foolish to “pin the Holocaust on Darwin” as it would be to deny that his theory was appealed to—to whatever extent, to whatever degree, to whatever interpretation, have you ever read Hitler’s works?<BR/>I am not an adherent of the “only one motivation for…” school of blame laying.<BR/>And if you are agreeing with Larryniven’s inability to respond with anything but sidestepping ridicule it is sadly very revealing you would do well to criticize Larryniven.<BR/><BR/>Arguments from risible are irrelevant. I would be interested to know how an absolute materialist and Darwinist condemns any form of sexism or anything else for that matter. Atheist on this blog are constantly shooting off condemnations and I continually ask for their premise and they respond with either silence or ridicule.<BR/><BR/>I am glad to hear that you refute Darwin’s faulty scientific conclusion about the sexes even though I did not notice how you scientifically argued against him.<BR/><BR/>I think that you are missing the point that the Bible has told itself to, employing your terminology, “shove” it. The Old Testament law was for a particular people, in a particular place, in a particular time, under a particular governance and it was a law upon which they had agreed.<BR/><BR/>As for women to not allow them to speak in church it sounds as if you have either not read the text or have not muse about it. It is not stating what you imply. If fact, it is making the very opposite point in pointing out that keeping women silent is no answer to the problem being addressed.<BR/><BR/>An Old Testament text states, “She opens her mouth with wisdom, and on her tongue <I>is</I> the law of kindness (Proverbs 31:25-26).<BR/><BR/>aDios,<BR/>MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-41300237698383646432009-01-27T03:52:00.000-07:002009-01-27T03:52:00.000-07:00Mariano- yes, Darwin did produce his time to some ...Mariano- yes, Darwin did produce his time to some extent: he made it possible to see how life could come to be without God. Not correct in all the details, and not going back to the beginning; but the world has been a different place since he lived- a better informed one.<BR/><BR/>I do hope you are not claiming that male chauvinism originated with Darwin, or I will have to concur with Larry about your doing stand-up comedy. I also hope you are not going to pin the Holocaust on Darwin, as Ben Stein did. This would also make good stand-up, except that it's not funny: it's merely being used as a tool to denigrate evolutionary theory, as a means to get stories about talking snakes into public school science classes. Have you ever read the Wedge Document? Have you ever read Hitler's works?<BR/><BR/>And claiming that the Bible is not male chauvinistic is risible. I suppose it's somehow showing "respect" to women to not allow them to speak in church, or to kill them if they're raped inside the city walls, or to save them as virgin brides for the Israelites who massacred the rest of their tribe. But it's not what I mean by "respect", and it sure as hell is not "equality".<BR/><BR/>Charles Darwin was a chauvinist by today's standards, yes. The Bible is of course considerably more so, as it comes from a much more primitive culture, and things have changed. I don't need to excuse Darwin's social failures, as you don't need to excuse the social failures of the Bible: they are products of their time. But some of us have moved on, and I can tell Darwin to shove his outdated mores. Can you do the same with the Bible?<BR/><BR/>cheers from overcast Vienna, zilchzilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-60193218758053359222009-01-26T21:00:00.000-07:002009-01-26T21:00:00.000-07:00"Let us first note that no atheist condemnation of..."Let us first note that no atheist condemnation of the Bible is the least bit relevant in that it holds no weight whatsoever since the only thing upon which the atheist bases their condemnation is that they have a personal preference to consider something condemnable."<BR/><BR/>"Argument from ridicule does not make for reasoned discourse."<BR/><BR/>"Darwin expressed male chauvinism while the Bible does not."<BR/><BR/>lol<BR/><BR/>You should go into standup. I'm officially unsubscribing from this thread, as it has descended into utter parody. Mariano, you're dumber than a doorknob, period the end - you aren't wrong because you're dumb, but that doesn't mean you're not dumb. zilch, good luck.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-87411313219667254442009-01-26T19:49:00.000-07:002009-01-26T19:49:00.000-07:00I am not sure if we should say that he was a produ...I am not sure if we should say that he was a product of his time or that he produced his time.<BR/>Yes, I get the difference: Darwin expressed male chauvinism while the Bible does not.<BR/><BR/>aDios,<BR/>MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-32703181654524935802009-01-24T09:42:00.000-07:002009-01-24T09:42:00.000-07:00Mariano: Darwin was a product of his time, was hum...Mariano: Darwin was a product of his time, was humble and open to criticism, and did not claim to be inspired by God or absolutely correct. Christians claim that the Bible is inspired by God, is timeless, and is absolutely correct. Do you understand the difference?zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-19505744838867247462009-01-23T19:53:00.000-07:002009-01-23T19:53:00.000-07:00Larryniven;Argument from ridicule does not make fo...<B>Larryniven;</B><BR/>Argument from ridicule does not make for reasoned discourse.<BR/><BR/><B>To everyone;</B><BR/>Let us not forget:<BR/><I>“Man is more courageous, pugnacious and energetic than woman, and has a more inventive genius….<BR/>The chief distinction in the intellectual powers of the two sexes is shewn by man’s attaining to a higher eminence, in whatever he takes up, than can woman- whether requiring deep thought, reason, or imagination, or merely the use of the senses and hands.<BR/>If two lists were made of the most eminent men and women in poetry, painting, sculpture, music (inclusive both of composition and performance), history, science, and philosophy, with half-a-dozen names under each subject, the two lists would not bear comparison. <BR/>We may also infer, from the law of the deviation from averages, so well illustrated by Mr.Galton, in his work on Hereditary Genius, that if men are capable of a decided pre-eminence over women in many subjects, the average of mental power in man must be above that of woman.”</I><BR/><BR/>aDios,<BR/>MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-28850565728400339132009-01-19T07:39:00.000-07:002009-01-19T07:39:00.000-07:00I've been following this thread, and I don't reall...I've been following this thread, and I don't really have anything to add, except that the defense of the Bible against charges of sexism reminds me of the "separate but equal" defense of racial segregation in public schools, that was overturned in <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education" REL="nofollow">1954</A>.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-84972653901649108542009-01-18T07:31:00.000-07:002009-01-18T07:31:00.000-07:00Mariano, you're officially ignored for being out o...Mariano, you're officially ignored for being out of your mind. I wouldn't trust you to be capable of reasonable discourse any more than I'd trust you to have heat vision or fly.<BR/><BR/>Jesse, could you move the goalposts any more than you already have? First it was that God values and treats men and women exactly the same, now it's that God values and treats them differently depending on the circumstance and maybe how God's feeling that day. First it was that the Bible doesn't say bad things about women more so than men, now it's that it does say such things but they're justified for some obscure meaning of "justified." First you were willing to admit that men have the Biblical right to tell women what to do in their spiritual lives, now you're demanding evidence that I've already given. You've already seen my citations - in fact, if anything, you're the one who needs to start citing chapter and verse to prove your point. Even in the section you cite, an abused woman <I>has no right to ask for damages</I>: that right is ceded to her husband. (Let's not even talk about what happens if she's not married, shall we?) If this is your idea of gender equality, you're just as insane as Mariano. All you're coming up with is assertions that the Bible is fair to women, with no unifying theory and no evidence. I could do that all day long, but that's called sophistry, and I have higher standards than that. This is your last chance to say something sane that's consistent with the rest of your comments - if you're unable to do so, I'll consider my point to have been proven, because nobody in this thread will have been able to dispute it.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-42572505404831453432009-01-18T04:57:00.000-07:002009-01-18T04:57:00.000-07:00Larry, "The kind of leadership the Bible is talkin...Larry, <BR/><BR/><B>"The kind of leadership the Bible is talking about ...results from an inborn spiritual unbalance between men and women." ... "men have total license in spiritual matters"</B> <BR/><BR/>Where in the Bible did you find such notions? Verses...?<BR/><BR/><B>"I mean, care to explain why, in Leviticus 27:3-7, God explicitly and literally values men and women differently?"</B> <BR/><BR/>This is your example of biblical misogyny? That male labor garnered a higher price than that of women, children, or the elderly? Visit a gym and you'll see why. <BR/><BR/>As for the value God placed on lives, rather than physical service, see Exodus 21:20-28: the punishments for harming or killing women are the same as those for men.Jesse Hammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02253641550766389238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-18884989385405949272009-01-17T21:26:00.000-07:002009-01-17T21:26:00.000-07:00Larryniven;Thanks for getting back to me.If you ar...Larryniven;<BR/>Thanks for getting back to me.<BR/><BR/>If you are ever prepared for reasoned discourse please do check back.<BR/><BR/>aDios,<BR/>MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-21211150108626488992009-01-15T22:54:00.000-07:002009-01-15T22:54:00.000-07:00"Let us first note that no atheist condemnation of..."Let us first note that no atheist condemnation of the Bible is the least bit relevant"<BR/><BR/>Bahahahaha! Okay, buddy, if you say so. Enjoy life in your little loony bin.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-24031265787737237562009-01-15T22:16:00.000-07:002009-01-15T22:16:00.000-07:00All: thank you so much for your thoughts. I noted ...All: thank you so much for your thoughts. I noted some new names and am glad to have you here.<BR/><BR/>Let us first note that no atheist condemnation of the Bible is the least bit relevant in that it holds no weight whatsoever since the only thing upon which the atheist bases their condemnation is that they have a personal preference to consider something condemnable. Ask them why and they will assert another personal preference. Ask them why and they will merely pile assertion upon assertion. Condemnation discredits atheism and atheism discredits condemnation.<BR/><BR/>All Biblical references to women are premised upon the Biblical statement that God created both men and women in His own image.<BR/><BR/>I think that part of the confusion going on here is in cases of <I>roles</I>. Men and women have different soles. For example, God does not allow men to bare children.<BR/><BR/>Larryniven wrote, “religiosity correlates rather strongly with anti-feminist sentiments.”<BR/>I say Amen!!!!!! May religiosity be damned!!!!!!!!!<BR/><BR/>aDios,<BR/>MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-2604952638033904872009-01-15T14:41:00.000-07:002009-01-15T14:41:00.000-07:00I mean, care to explain why, in Leviticus 27:3-7, ...I mean, care to explain why, in Leviticus 27:3-7, God explicitly and literally values men and women differently? Have you even <I>read</I> the Bible?Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-64048424016967405582009-01-15T14:37:00.000-07:002009-01-15T14:37:00.000-07:00A "knack"? Who said anything about a "knack"? Your...A "knack"? Who said anything about a "knack"? Your lawyer doesn't have a knack for being good at legal stuff, right? I'm pretty sure also that they didn't even have the concept of a knack at the time this stuff was written - either way, it's surely not what they intended. Just as surely, it's also more than an "administrative" issue. You don't think priests are just God's secretaries, do you?<BR/><BR/>The kind of leadership the Bible is talking about - as interpreted by every Biblical scholar for well over a thousand years, as practiced by most lay and learned Christians, and as disputed by only a tiny minority of modern Biblical scholars - is one that results from an inborn spiritual unbalance between men and women. It's worth pointing out here that there isn't even a provision for women to object to men if those men are wrong in God's eyes. However many "points" God gives to women for following men in spiritual matters, doesn't the fact that men have total license in spiritual matters mean that God gives them more points? You really aren't making sense.<BR/><BR/>"The Bible shows throughout that God values men and women equally."<BR/><BR/>Correction: the Bible <I>says</I>, at some points, that God values men and women equally. This is far from <I>showing</I> anything - specifically, God, as a fiction, can't be shown to value anything, period.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-42104804860653299742009-01-15T14:25:00.000-07:002009-01-15T14:25:00.000-07:00Larry, A knack for spiritual leadership is only on...Larry, <BR/><BR/>A knack for spiritual leadership is only one of many qualities a believer can have, and is inessential to personal worth or a healthy relationship with God. Your attempt to reduce the Christian experience to a contest of administrative skill is bizarre and baseless. God grants more points for how we follow than how we lead -- and for much else that leadership doesn't touch on. <BR/><BR/>I'm happy to talk about both Christian behavior and the Bible; I just don't share your eagerness to conflate them. The Bible shows throughout that God values men and women equally. Church history has reflected this, in that Christian cultures have treated women better than other cultures -- though imperfectly, since "Christian cultures" are only Christian in a general, imperfect sense.<BR/><BR/>I have better things to do than explicate lists of verses that you can't be bothered to explicate yourself. Sorry you find that pathetic. If I have time, and I see you making a good case for a bad interpretation, rest assured I'll chime in.Jesse Hammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02253641550766389238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-91066209455847220822009-01-15T13:42:00.000-07:002009-01-15T13:42:00.000-07:00Dither dither dither..."It's possible that men in ...Dither dither dither...<BR/><BR/>"It's possible that men in general are better equipped to lead women in those few instances in which they are called upon to do so, but this doesn't render women inferior per se. I happily defer to the leadership of my lawyer where legal options are concerned, but that doesn't make him superior human being."<BR/><BR/>Okay, let's go with this <I>new</I> analogy. You follow your lawyer in legal matters because your lawyer is...what, exactly? Taller than you? No. Physically stronger than you? Nope. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you follow your lawyer in legal matters because your lawyer is superior to you in legal matters - in legal understanding, practice, power, and standing. So if this is a good analogy, then you're saying that the Bible's view of men is that they are spiritually superior to women in practice, power, understanding, and so on - that, in other words, women are spiritually inferior to men. Now, what does it mean to be spiritually inferior? Given that one goes to heaven or hell based on the state of one's soul - that, in other words, <I>God judges you based on your soul</I> - it follows that spiritual inferiority is the same as inferiority in he eyes of God. This is supposed to prove that the Bible has a positive view of women because...<BR/><BR/>"Only in your minds is it a problem that we don't grow into every leadership role."<BR/><BR/>Bzzt - wrong. I'm not saying that it's bad that women <I>don't</I> "grow into every leadership role," I'm saying it's bad that they <I>can't</I>. I think this limitation, further, is plainly more serious than, say, the limitation on U.S Presidents that they be born in the country, if for no other reason than because it carries with it the clear implication - as I showed above - that women are spiritually inferior to men (the president thing has no such implication).<BR/><BR/>"You again conflate the Bible with its followers."<BR/><BR/>Dude, that was you - remember when you said, "the Church has treated women much better than other cultures have throughout history"? If you didn't want me to talk about the behavior of actual Christians, why'd you bring it up? Why don't you, instead, actually talk about the Bible? I mean, I cited verses from six books, and you can only come up with a weak objection to one of those citations? This is pathetic.<BR/><BR/>And while we're on the subject of pathetic, where's Mariano, hm? I'd think that he would want to step in here somewhere and pretend to know what he's talking about.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-9214223283000861792009-01-15T13:32:00.000-07:002009-01-15T13:32:00.000-07:00Reynold,"Sure, some individual women are honoured,...Reynold,<BR/><BR/><B>"Sure, some individual women are honoured, but that doesn't wash away the general blame that is attributed to women because of eve. Even the bible says that as punishment for what ONE woman, eve, did, that all women have to undergo pain in childbirth."</B><BR/><BR/>Both sexes suffered for Adam and Eve's sin; you can't claim discrimination there. Adam's male offspring were cursed with hard work, which lasts much longer than childbirth, and results even now in higher death-rates among men, even counting deaths during childbirth. <BR/><BR/>The Timothy verse you cited observes that she alone was deceived, but clearly Adam sinned too, and without the excuse of having been tricked. In Romans 5:12, Adam is represented as the first sinner, the head of the sinning race, and there is no reference made to Eve. She hardly comes off any worse than he. <BR/><BR/><B>"In Revelations when it says:<BR/>Revelations 14:4 <I>These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.</I><BR/>Note that it's males who are not 'defiled' with women here."</B><BR/><BR/>The Bible always speaks approvingly of wholesome relations between the sexes; obviously what's referred to here by "defiled with women" is immoral relations. Just like "drunk on wine" is no condemnation of wine, but of its misuse. <BR/><BR/>The fact that they were virgins is presumably offered to prove that they never fornicated, like saying,"They never got drunk; in fact, they were teetotalers." <BR/><BR/>The fact that they were males is presumably because they were male; I don't see any problem there. <BR/><BR/>And it's "Revelation." No "s." <BR/><BR/><B>"how many men were killed for 'witchcraft' as compared to women?"</B><BR/><BR/>How many women are killed for treason as compared to men? How many women are jailed for rape? Clearly some crimes & punishments favor certain genders. <BR/><BR/><B>"it was the enlightenment that helped bring about women's rights. It wasn't until very recently in western secular gov'ts that women got the right to vote."</B><BR/><BR/>Deborah was running Israel with God's approval thousands of years before the Enlightenment. The Bible says nothing against female authority in politics.<BR/><BR/><B>"<I>'For all its faults, the Church has treated women much better than other cultures have throughout history.'</I><BR/>At least one of those cultures, Islam, sprung from christianity."</B><BR/><BR/>You were reaching with the Leviticus passage; now you're being completely silly. <BR/><BR/>I don't have time to reply the rest of the verses you misconstrued, but again, <A HREF="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/femalex.html" REL="nofollow">Miller</A> brings plenty of good insight to the table.Jesse Hammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02253641550766389238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-52324398461849504622009-01-15T13:31:00.000-07:002009-01-15T13:31:00.000-07:00Larry,"So, just like children are inferior to adul...Larry,<BR/><BR/><B>"So, just like children are inferior to adults (in some sense) until they become adults, the Bible says (and expects its followers to behave as though) women are inferior to men"</B><BR/><BR/>The reasons children must submit to their parents aren't necessarily the reasons women must submit to husbands or pastors. For instance, there are biblical instances of saints submitting to inferior leaders on principle, and in deference to God's plan, rather than because they lack leadership qualities. Similarly, actors who direct well must still submit to inferior directors. (See: Orson Welles, <I>The Transformers</I>.) <BR/><BR/>It's possible that men <I>in general</I> are better equipped to lead women in those few instances in which they are called upon to do so, but this doesn't render women inferior per se. I happily defer to the leadership of my lawyer where legal options are concerned, but that doesn't make him superior human being. <BR/><BR/><B>"until...they become men? Whoops! Looks like your analogy has run into a bit of a problem"</B><BR/>(Reynold adds: <B>"Children grow up and can then gain authority. Women can't exactly change their genders, now, can they?"</B>)<BR/><BR/>Only in your minds is it a problem that we don't grow into every leadership role. That I'll never be a lawyer doesn't bother me at all. By your reasoning, the American Presidency is inherently flawed, because,"I'll never be President!" Even circumstances of birth may prevent this (see Schwarzenegger).<BR/><BR/><B>"this just says ... that 'the Church' is better than some other organizations, not that it's good. I thought the point, though, was to argue that the Bible in fact made a good case for feminism, not just a less awful one than other belief systems?"</B><BR/><BR/>You again conflate the Bible with its followers.Jesse Hammhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02253641550766389238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-66919951302195232592009-01-10T18:21:00.000-07:002009-01-10T18:21:00.000-07:00"I don't know, maybe it's shorten so mother can ta...<B>"I don't know, maybe it's shorten so mother can take part in circumcision ceremony on 8th day from birth."<BR/>Too bad the bible doesn't say that...</B><BR/><I>It doesn't say what's a reason for that at all.</I><BR/>It just says that women were "unclean" when they gave birth; twice as long for daughters as for sons. Any guessing on your part to try to explain that is just extra-biblical guessing, and you never did answer why it's twice as long for daughters as for sons.<BR/><BR/><B>"To keep husbend away from her."<BR/>Couldn't the bible have just said something like "let the woman rest up" instead of saying that she's "unclean"?</B><BR/><I>I don't know the reason.<BR/>It's law that went out of usage like 2k years ago.</I><BR/>So what? You never answered the question I asked. Why couldn't the bible have just siad something like "let the woman rest up" instead of saying that she's "unclean". After all, remember who you people say came up with the laws in the first place. <BR/><BR/><B>"Other consequences that both man and woman has to bear are much worse than that."<BR/>So what? I'm not talking about the "other consequences", I'm talking about this. Why dodge?</B><BR/><I>Do you think that it's not right that some people suffer more physical pain than other?</I><BR/>Obviously, especially when <B>it's the descendents of those who allegedly did the "crime" in the first place who have to suffer for it</B>.<BR/><BR/>You apparently have no problem with women being stuck with increased birth pains because of what the alleged "first woman" did. <BR/><BR/><B>"Those symbolic 144k are people who haven't done that, chosen ones, pure, not defiled by world."<BR/>No, it says not defiled by "women".</B><BR/><I>Which symbolizes defiling by world.</I><BR/>But then why is it that it's "women" who is equated with being defiled by the world, and also you do know that there are some sects out there that take that verse literally.<BR/><I>If you want to literally read Revelation check out chapter 12.</I><BR/>I'll leave that idiocy to the "Left Behind" and "Rapture Ready" idiots.<BR/><BR/><B>Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.<BR/>Self-evident.<BR/>"And so she should submit to him. Already discussed earlier."<BR/>Thanks for conceding a point.</B><BR/><I>My pleasure. You, as larry, want to make strange experiment - remove the foundation of the Bible and show how wrong it is.</I><BR/>Huh? "want to make strange experiment"? As for how wrong it is, it makes someone inferior and subordinate just through an accident of birth. <BR/><BR/><B>"Jesus tested that woman."<BR/>Odd that it was a women who had to pass this "test", and as I said, she had to grovel for it...you're said nothing that helps in your defense here.</B><BR/><I>God has the very right to test us in this life. She was rewarded for her faith and love then and probably with greatest award at the end of her trial on Earth.<BR/>She was happy, why do you grumble?</I><BR/>She had to abase herself first, that's why. She was relieved and grateful, sure, but since christ is supposed to "know everything" that test was <B>unnecessary</B> in the first place, wasn't it? <BR/><BR/><B>"Jesus didn't actually thought about her as someone worse."<BR/>No, he just treated her like someone worse.</B><BR/><I>That's what this test was about: ego and self-esteem vs love and faith.</I><BR/>What makes you think that the woman had a big ego in the first place? Wouldn't "jesus" as all-knowing as he is, have known that in the first place? Jesus treated her like crap, and you blindly accept it. Let me guess: If she didn't grovel before him, what would he have done? Who would have paid that price? <BR/><BR/><B>"The other day He had no problem with talking to Samaritan (and sinful) woman despite disrespect of Jews to Samaritans - most even didn't talk to the latter."<BR/>The beauty of having an inconsistent holy book. Besides, reading that section, it seems that Jesus was making a case against the "racism" of the time; the fact that she was a woman seems to be purely incidental.<BR/>Beauty of having double standards.</B><BR/><I>Treating woman bad - mysoginy, treating woman good - accident.</I><BR/>Given the bible's overall attitude towards women that may be a fair statement.<BR/><BR/><B>Like your religion never set up its own rules, never went against the beliefs of others, etc? Right. The OT has lots of rules set up, and lots of instances where "god" says that his rules are the rules to be followed, not the rules of the "society".</B><BR/><I>The OT laws is different (and complicated) story.<BR/>But yout still didn't explain what's wrong with Christian model of marriage.</I><BR/>I have; the whole problem of "servitude" as opposed to "equality". Besides, the OT law was made by whom, again?<BR/><BR/>The point I was making in my above statement is that the bible a lot of times has laws that go against what society generally went for, so why in some cases, have barbaric laws in the OT which went along with what the other societies had at the time?<BR/><BR/><B>"Witch hunting is not christian practice - it's very unchristian."<BR/>But very Old Testament, though. It's still your book, it's still you problem.</B><BR/><I>OT laws expired long time ago.</I><BR/>Where does it say that, specifically? Remember <B>Matthew 5:17-19</B>. The law is supposed to stay until "jesus" does everything he's set out to do. He's not done that yet; since he has not come back and established his "kingdom" yet.<BR/><BR/>Remember, the 10 Commandments are from the OT and <B>they're</B> still supposed to apply, are they not? As well, who came up with the OT laws in the first place?<BR/><BR/><I>Even though, false accusations violate one of ten commendments.</I><BR/>And where are the ten commandments again?<BR/><BR/><B>Then there's the OT treatment:<BR/>Numbers 31:31-40, women as war booty. Only virgins, mind you. I wonder why?</B><BR/><B>Morals changed over time. Thing is, your OT bible was written before that time, so your god was as barbaric as any other around. As morals changed, you people were left stuck with the portrayal of the OT god that matched the morals of the people of that time.</B><BR/><I>OT law were much better than other tribes. OT moral standards skyrocketed in comparison to other nations of that times and are still actual.</I><BR/>"are still actual"? What do you mean by that? <BR/><BR/>Citations needed; the killing off of entire "nations" of people and keeping their virgin daughters as war booty is "much better" than other tribes? <BR/><BR/><B>As a result, the "pro-life" people of today find themselves arguing for genocide and baby-killing back then, all the while pretending that it's the atheists who don't understand ancient times.</B><BR/><I>The biggest difference between OT Jews and Charistians is that the former didn't consider pagans to be protected by biblical laws.</I><BR/>You left out xians who follwed the OT laws before the enlightenment, and the fact that what you said doesn't negate in the least what I just said above.<BR/><BR/><B>Why would they have needed to take virgin women anyway? Mariano doesn't answer that.</B><BR/><I>Probably because it's not written in the Bible.</I><BR/>Wrong. <B>Numbers 31:31-40</B>Reynoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316048340050664487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-76363298129063950022009-01-10T10:51:00.000-07:002009-01-10T10:51:00.000-07:00"It's like saying atheism sucks because some athei..."It's like saying atheism sucks because some atheists, in the name of God, steal yellow bicycles."<BR/><BR/>Ahahaha! Yes: those two things are exactly the same. In the one case, Christians, using the best available interpretation of their holy books, actually killed women essentially just for being unpopular and female. In the other case, you're making something up out of thin air, and even then it doesn't make sense. Totally the same!<BR/><BR/>I'm done arguing with you: if you're empty-headed enough to keep on with this kind of transparently idiotic nonsense, there's nothing I can do for you. Enjoy the rest of your deluded life.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3004069192536581829.post-15804023168588532182009-01-08T17:25:00.000-07:002009-01-08T17:25:00.000-07:00Me, in the second comment:"I guess you'll tell me ...Me, in the second comment:<BR/>"I guess you'll tell me those people aren't 'real Christians'?"<BR/><BR/>tremor, several days later:<BR/>"Witch hunting is not christian practice - it's very unchristian."<BR/><BR/>You lose. Good day, sir.Elihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03543293341085230171noreply@blogger.com